My New Crown XTi 1000s Are Here!!

[Coytee]

You could send me those big black boxes you have ...

Oh...it's a thought yes, but trust me when I tell you this... I'd never burdon anyone with these Pluglies... Your wife would never go for it. nope...unless you just ironically happened to have some, you'd never understand.....Truely, you'd thank me for not doing it. You're welcome in advance.

[*-)]

[NOSValves]

I presently use XTI's to power my RF-7's. This weekend I will be checking out some RF-7's powered by 35wpc VRD's.

What differences can I expect to hear?.............seriously.

I have no clue I've never heard an crown Xti and from what I've heard around here lately I'm glad LOL!! By the way I have never built a 35 watt VRD..... are you going to be using a VRD stereo amp? Maybe the one I built custom for Allan Songer using 350B output tubes? I'm sure it will do just fine of course its not going to blow the walls down if that's what your after. What preamp will be used? and what kind of music? The 350B version is really best for Jazz and acoustic music in my opinion. It's definitely nothing like a set of VRD mono blocks or the normally KT88 configured Stereo amp when it comes sheer power or strangle hold on the woofers.

Craig

[Deang]

Wow!

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1212445503

Double Wow!

The plan was to start with the Crowns, not end with them. I eventually wanted to upgrade, and then use at least one of them on a second system -- but after the trial run the other day it doesn't look like that is going to work out. Also, With the possibility of my wife being laid off from her job in the next couple of months, I decided that whatever changes I want to make should be done now, since I might not have the opportunity later -- I can always sell everything off if the bottom drops out. Incidently, I put them up before I saw Shawn's traces, but after seeing them I think they're exactly where they should be. With everything else going on around here the last thing I need is a case of audionervosa. I'm bad that way, I have no patience with gear that doesn't work the way it should or leaves a question mark hanging in the air every time I turn the system on.

I predict Dean will have new crossovers and amps by the end of this summer.

I predict that he'll have them within the next month.

Not that I should make comment here but I've already emailed Dean & offered him unfettered use of one of my 4-channel amps that I'm not using.

Hi Richard -- I didn't see the email, I was out in the field yesterday. I won't see any mail from the forum until I get back to work on Monday. That's a great offer, but I don't use a preamp! Also, thanks for the words of encouragement (you too Robert) -- right, the bottom hasn't dropped out yet, and we don't even know for sure if it will. If it does, we'll deal with it. We've been there before, so its not like it's uncharted territory. Right now it's healthy concern, I'll save the screaming and flailing arms for later if the trap door drops open.

When I first started reading your post I was wondering if the Advents sounded so bad after a season of Jubilee sound.

Dee, that was rather perceptive. I hooked a Crown to my a/d/s monitors and the results were much better. However, still not what I wanted to hear.

I presently use XTI's to power my RF-7's. This weekend I will be checking out some RF-7's powered by 35wpc VRD's. What differences can I expect to hear?.............seriously.

On the Jubilees, the Crown sounds clean and authoritative, but it's pretty forward with a lean and mean midrange. Like most solid state, the sound doesn't so much envelope you as it just comes right at you -- soundstaging is more two dimensional. With Craig's amps on the RF-7's, the sound will have more body, with a smoother and more relaxed midrange -- and will also project into the room better. Don't expect 35 watts to blow you out of the room, though it will get much louder than you think it should. If you sit semi-nearfield, you'll get a real nice ride if you want to jack on the volume. Craig asked you what you will be using for a preamp -- which is a valid question because a mediocre performer will pinch off the better qualities of the amp.

I still say a passive x over for the Jubes, and Jube scalas, IF Roy could do it to be sold.. Would go a LONG way to make these legit to us "simple no techno scientific types!" The only caveat.... They can't be like so expensive people run away at the thought!!

Roger, when the AK-4 upgrade kit came out for the Klipschorn, the networks were $900 a pair. I believe that's come down some, but I can't remember how much. The 402 networks have less elements, so I'm thinking that if Klipsch did it using Mylar capacitors and steel laminates, they would sell for $600-$700. I'm not too thrilled about those caps, but I do like the idea of that nice thick PCB with all the parts laid out nice and tight.

Biamping with a stack of inferior electronics usually sounds worse than full range amplification through a modestly competant passive crossover, IME. Time alignment can't fix that.

Mark, I actually can't decide if I agree or not!

Bruce, right now I'm weighing my options, but will say I'm leaning away from "pro solutions".

[SWL]

I presently use XTI's to power my RF-7's. This weekend I will be checking out some RF-7's powered by 35wpc VRD's.

What differences can I expect to hear?.............seriously.

I have no clue I've never heard an crown Xti and from what I've heard around here lately I'm glad LOL!! By the way I have never built a 35 watt VRD..... are you going to be using a VRD stereo amp? Maybe the one I built custom for Allan Songer using 350B output tubes? I'm sure it will do just fine of course its not going to blow the walls down if that's what your after. What preamp will be used? and what kind of music? The 350B version is really best for Jazz and acoustic music in my opinion. It's definitely nothing like a set of VRD mono blocks or the normally KT88 configured Stereo amp when it comes sheer power or strangle hold on the woofers.

Craig

Yeah, now that you mention it I believe it is a VRD stereo amp. It will be run with a JM Peach preamp........which is what I also run with my RF-7's.

I will be going into the listening session with an open mind and open ears........since in my system I run four RF-7's powered by XTI-2000's.

Various types of music will be played to get the feel for it......at this point I don't know what tubes are in it. I'l post some comparisons tonight when I get home.

PS.........When in the mood, I do want to blow the walls down!![li][]

[Daddy Dee]

?

My thought....

I still say a passive x over for the Jubes, and Jube scalas, IF Roy could do it to be sold.. Would go a LONG way to make these legit to us "simple no techno scientic types!" The only caveat.... They can't be like so expensive people run away at the thought!!

Indy,

I think you are right. Roy has indeed designed a passive crossover for Jubilee and is available to share the schematic. Is that what you are referring to? I don't know what it would take for Klipsch to make it. That probably would not be easy. It would be easy enough to ask Bob Crites to build it, for the same end result. For consumers, though, there is something about turn key that assuring to consumers.

Interesting question. The Jubilee buyer is such an enthusiast type, though, a definite target marketing oddity, I think.

[cjgeraci]

I presently use XTI's to power my RF-7's. This weekend I will be checking out some RF-7's powered by 35wpc VRD's.

What differences can I expect to hear?.............seriously.

I have no clue I've never heard an crown Xti and from what I've heard around here lately I'm glad LOL!! By the way I have never built a 35 watt VRD..... are you going to be using a VRD stereo amp? Maybe the one I built custom for Allan Songer using 350B output tubes? I'm sure it will do just fine of course its not going to blow the walls down if that's what your after. What preamp will be used? and what kind of music? The 350B version is really best for Jazz and acoustic music in my opinion. It's definitely nothing like a set of VRD mono blocks or the normally KT88 configured Stereo amp when it comes sheer power or strangle hold on the woofers.

Craig

Yeah, now that you mention it I believe it is a VRD stereo amp. It will be run with a JM Peach preamp........which is what I also run with my RF-7's.

I will be going into the listening session with an open mind and open ears........since in my system I run four RF-7's powered by XTI-2000's.

Various types of music will be played to get the feel for it......at this point I don't know what tubes are in it. I'l post some comparisons tonight when I get home.

PS.........When in the mood, I do want to blow the walls down!!

Dean described some of the qualitative differences between a tube amp such as you will be hearing and the Crowns pretty well. That being said, you run a Peach so....a prepro that, in my experience, brings some of the qualities found in better tube amps to their solid state brethren. And, it also has a tendency to make crappy amps sound much better (comment not directed towards the XTi since I have never heard one). I have used a Peach for years, also using it to run front and rear speakers, now morphed Klipschorns in front (that are barely Khorns anymore) as well as fully modded Belles in the rear. But, in the past, I've also run Dean-modded RF7s, Cornwalls and Altecs off of the Peach. So, you already have a leg up and those Crowns will have sounded much better than if you were using a different prepro.

I also agree that having been an owner of 35 watt tube amps (such as the VRD stereo) as well as now - VRD monoblocks and various Bryston, Crown, and QSC amps from 150-200 watts per - that the VRD stereo will not have enough headroom for you. After all, I sold one of crown jewels of the audio world, my beloved Marantz 8B, because it was only a 35 watt tube amp, and like Scotty on the Enterprise, I just had to have more power.

You would not have that problem with VRD monoblocs though. I know the Peach/NOS Valves sound pretty well. It is a special combo.

Happy test listening.

Carl.

[NOSValves]

PS.........When in the mood, I do want to blow the walls down!!

Well then you're auditioning the wrong amp for wall demolision []... but you will get some idea of the character. When is this going to happen? Maybe I could send you a different tube set to try in the amps that will give it a bit more umph...... But of course you will need the owners permission and be comfortable biasing the amps.

Craig

[cjgeraci]

Yeah, now that you mention it I believe it is a VRD stereo amp. It will be run with a JM Peach preamp........which is what I also run with my RF-7's.

I will be going into the listening session with an open mind and open ears........since in my system I run four RF-7's powered by XTI-2000's.

Various types of music will be played to get the feel for it......at this point I don't know what tubes are in it. I'l post some comparisons tonight when I get home.

PS.........When in the mood, I do want to blow the walls down!!

I know this probably isn't how it will go down, but I would suggest doing the first few hours of listening at levels which never exceed the capability of the SMALLEST amp to be tested. Then, after forming opinions at that power level, blast away with the bigger amps.

Mark, I agree that listening to amps should follow that procedure, but.....you know that it never goes down like that.......[*-)]

BTW, I've been listening to that Crown Powerline 4 (from the early 80s) that I picked up recently at pretty low volumes with my Belles. The internet chatter about the amp says that it operates in Class A for a long time before it jumps up. It has a surprisingly nice sound at lower volumes, but with 165 total watts per - in reserve. My guess based on your comments and comments of some others is that this older Crown sounds nothing like the XTi.

Then again, this older Crown is not exactly like a great tube amp either..........

Carl.

[anarchist]

I also agree that having been an owner of 35 watt tube amps (such as the VRD stereo) as well as now - VRD monoblocks and various Bryston, Crown, and QSC amps from 150-200 watts per - that the VRD stereo will not have enough headroom for you. After all, I sold one of crown jewels of the audio world, my beloved Marantz 8B, because it was only a 35 watt tube amp, and like Scotty on the Enterprise, I just had to have more power.

Wow. How much volume does one need? I have tube amps ranging from 14wpc to 60wpc. The 14wpc on a set of Heresies is capable of producing one hell of a lot of incredible sound on anything from Reggae to Heavy metal. There are times I prefer the 60wpc on the Klipschorns but it isn't as much a matter of volume as it is the sound.

I probably listen louder than most on this board on more occasions. I haven't found many occasions where I thought I needed more "headroom" with 14wpc. Now if I am throwing a neighborhood concert (opening the windows and exposing the masses to Black Sabbath) I will use the Khorns & the Dynaco's. I have a couple of unused solid state amps as well. They have far more power. I have never found them necessary nor enjoyed them them a fraction of what I do the tube amps - they aren't superior to the 14wpc in anyway.

Wattage is largely irrelevant and is generally the last thing to be concerned with; I take a great sounding Eico HF-81 over a 100 watt solid state amp any day. If I had to sell all my equipment except for a piece or two, I would be very hard pressed to give up the Eico over the modded and rodded Dynaco's.

My point. Don't be concerned with quantity, focus on quality.

[NOSValves]

I probably listen louder than most on this board on more occasions. I haven't found many occasions where I thought I needed more "headroom" with 14wpc.

Then I would say your home brew 60 watters are not working all that well. The sound difference of the Mark III's should be stunningly different then the little HF-81... And I mean stunning especially when leaning on the volume control.

[cjgeraci]

Wow, a worshipping Eico reference. Having heard that model of amp in different configs, I still don't get the hype over its "sound."

But, that's what makes this hobby great isn't it, the subjective nature of it?

Heck, maybe next we will hear that VRDs are just overblown Mark IIIs. [*-)][:|]

I agree. Quality over quantity is generally a good concept.

I also advocate for higher quality speakers and drivers.[:$]

Carl.

P.S. I personally need more "headroom" than only 14 watts - unless that amp is only powering the upper horns. But, then again, I really don't listen all that loud....compared to most in the forum [:S]

[SWL]

PS.........When in the mood, I do want to blow the walls down!!

Well then you're auditioning the wrong amp for wall demolision ... but you will get some idea of the character. When is this going to happen? Maybe I could send you a different tube set to try in the amps that will give it a bit more umph...... But of course you will need the owners permission and be comfortable biasing the amps.

Craig

I have two systems in my house........a bedroom system that is very casual and is intended for the best possible sq that I can afford (Heresy's and/or RB-75's).

In the other system with the RF-7's I have noticed that in a typical situation of having some friends over for a few drinks........listening to cd's at a respectable level.........if I say "check this out" and really lay into it, I'll get comments like.........."Wow, that sounds great but it is very loud!!"

Put in a concert DVD and crank it to the same or even higher listening levels..........."Man, this is actually like being AT the concert".........I'll say "Is it too loud?.............They'll say......."No, well, it's loud but it' awesome!!"..............I'll say "Does it sound harsh in any way?".............They'll say "No, the detail is incredible, and the bass........"

And quite a few drinks later......I'll say "Man, I need more power"..........LOL []

[cjgeraci]

Hey, a RB-75 reference - - I miss mine. Once I pay some bills off, I need to find a pair for my bedroom.

Carl.

[SWL]

Hey, a RB-75 reference - - I miss mine. Once I pay some bills off, I need to find a pair for my bedroom.

Carl.

Yeah, the 75's are great for a 17X17 bedroom..........the Heresy's seem like they need more room, though.

[sheltie dave]

Wow, some new (and old)territory covered here. SWL, your experience with Craig's ST-35 will be akin to eating store purchased generic ice cream, and then switching to Ben and Jerry's. It will be very beguiling.

As far as how many watts is enough, someone who has two sets of RF7s with Crown XTIs will run into the no headroom wall sooner rather than later. Carl has proven that with good clean power, people get driven out of the room due to loudness before distortion becomes prevalent.

Carl, btw, I have the 400 wpc Peavey CS 800 and the Crown walnut case for your PL 4 in the basement. Beauty and the beast, ya know.

[Deang]

I don't know what it would take for Klipsch to make it. That probably would not be easy. It would be easy enough to ask Bob Crites to build it, for the same end result.

It would be incredibly easy for Klipsch to do it, much easier than for any of us. They outsource that work, from the PCB design to the actual build.

Bob breaks out in a rash when he touches resistors, I don't know if he would build them or not. I could probably be talked into it.

[CECAA850]

Dean, you have PM.

[BEC]

I don't know what it would take for Klipsch to make it. That probably would not be easy. It would be easy enough to ask Bob Crites to build it, for the same end result.

It would be incredibly easy for Klipsch to do it, much easier than for any of us. They outsource that work, from the PCB design to the actual build.

Bob breaks out in a rash when he touches resistors, I don't know if he would build them or not. I could probably be talked into it.

I might build them, but first I would want to see the customer's latest audiometer test results.

Bob

[Deang]

I've been thinking about something -- I'll call tonight.

[Erik Mandaville]

Why did Klipsch stop using the autoformer?

Erik