JBL L-350 VS> K HORNS

[Deang]

I'm more impressed by a system that uses inexpensive drivers and sounds really good than I am by a system that uses cost no object drivers and sounds "great" but costs as much as a new automobile. Maybe I'm not an "audiophile" after all.

[ZAKO]

Cost is reletive to your passion,,,,Even in tough times,, you will finally persevier.

[Coytee]

Cost is reletive to your passion,,,,

Or vanity?

I still think that those 'special wires' (though might impart some clarity) still can't do what another jump in speaker size can do....(Heresy's on "special wire" verses moving up to Cornwalls using 'zip wire' kinda thing....)

[]

[Deang]

"Cost is relative to your passion."

I guess that's probably true, but there is a point where it all just seems to border on the absurd. Maybe what I should have said is that a great sounding system you can afford is more impressive than a great sounding system you can't afford.

I've been watching those guys on the Lansing forum for a couple of years; it doesn't seem to matter how much money they spend on a compression driver -- after a while they move on to something else and on and on it goes. Familiarity breeds contempt -- live with something long enough and the "imperfections" start to stand out. Over time they stand out more and more until that's all you notice when you're listening. A cost no object system doesn't seem to bring any more long term listening pleasure than one that's been value engineered, and a properly engineered system using low to moderately priced components can easily out-perform something that's had a pile of money thrown at it that has design flaws. Finally, something that costs $20K may only sound marginally better than something that costs $7K, and if you take into account the situation with modern recordings, one could even argue that you might end up with better results using components with less resolving power.

[sheltie dave]

Dean, our shared passion happens to be our kids, and rightly so. It doesn't preclude us from sitting back, reading, watching, listening and observing(or owning) when we get the chance. PWK came through some hard times growing up, and it seemed to imbue him with an ability to get the most out of the least - a very sound engineering and economic model of frugal achievement.

At the same time, there are better ways to couple a KHorn to a room corner, modded crossovers, better woofers, mid and tweet drivers, better horn lenses, and better built enclosures. Every person who is thinking about modding a set of KHorns should practice some basic due diligence researching what they want and how they plan to achieve that end. That is where this site and others come in handy. I figured out what my first(quickly reversible) step would be three years ago, and then lurked for the moment when the right piece of gear, price, and funding intersected. As Marvel noted, funding reigns supreme in many Klipsch households.

FWIW, Maron's main KHorn guts have been together for close to 30 years, which would make his investment much, much smaller. A subcurrent in this and the Jubilee thread seems to be the note that few advances in woofer/driver technology have been made, and that the KHorn is a modern example of state of the art technology. The design is such, but the implementation is mainly state of the art from 40 years ago.

[ClaudeJ1]

I'm more impressed by a system that uses inexpensive drivers and sounds really good than I am by a system that uses cost no object drivers and sounds "great" but costs as much as a new automobile. Maybe I'm not an "audiophile" after all.

Dean, that is precisely the approach I have taken. There is no FUNDAMENTAL difference between components labeled "PA" or "home." It is basically ALL moving coils within a magnetic field. But, since I DO believe "the bigger the horn, the better the horn," withing their respective operating band and coverage requirement, they do produces less distortion/greater clarity because they are more efficient and have bigger drivers in proportion to the horn.

Since these things are too big for modern requirements of "flying" concert speakers, their only remaining application is a large theater, or, in my case, a house with a very tolerant wife. These components, with 25 pound ceramic magnets, etc. are abailable for as little at cents on the dollar.

So, with twin 15" bass drivers in big horns with big throats, a Midbass horn with a 12" driver with huge magnet, 4" Voice coil, and a 4x6" throat with Phase plug, a 2" throat, and a super tweeter with a 1" throat, all I need is about 1/8th of a watt of total power for an incredible listening experience. Adjusted for inflation, my two front channels would probably cost $20,000 in today's dollars at the new early 80's price, when they were built. Bang for the buck indeed.

I do recall, back in the 70's, where someone compare JBL L200 or L300's (gorgeous slant cabinets) against Cornwalls and the Cornwalls were preferred, so take this memory as nothing more than hearsay squared. The JBL 350 speakers (L300's in utility cabs and an extra woofer?) in this thread contain some old primo components, so depending on the PRICE, they could be useful.

[ClaudeJ1]

Finally, something that costs $20K may only sound marginally better than something that costs $7K, and if you take into account the situation with modern recordings, one could even argue that you might end up with better results using components with less resolving power.

Oh, boy. I won't bother to translate this one. Smooth and subtle dig there, Mr. Dean.

[ClaudeJ1]

FWIW, Maron's main KHorn guts have been together for close to 30 years, which would make his investment much, much smaller. A subcurrent in this and the Jubilee thread seems to be the note that few advances in woofer/driver technology have been made, and that the KHorn is a modern example of state of the art technology. The design is such, but the implementation is mainly state of the art from 40 years ago.

PWK used to say that advances have been largely in detail and better materials and NOT basic principles. His statement has also withstood the ultimate test..........the test of time.

Back in the 70's, there was a Klipsch brochure that mentioned all of the speaker names that came and went in the industry. I'm sure if you started the clock in teh 50's the list would be in the thousands today. So modding a good design is minor compared to the obsolescence that exists in the world of audio, whether planned or not.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

"Cost is relative to your passion."

I guess that's probably true, but there is a point where it all just seems to border on the absurd. Maybe what I should have said is that a great sounding system you can afford is more impressive than a great sounding system you can't afford.

I've been watching those guys on the Lansing forum for a couple of years; it doesn't seem to matter how much money they spend on a compression driver -- after a while they move on to something else and on and on it goes. Familiarity breeds contempt -- live with something long enough and the "imperfections" start to stand out. Over time they stand out more and more until that's all you notice when you're listening. A cost no object system doesn't seem to bring any more long term listening pleasure than one that's been value engineered, and a properly engineered system using low to moderately priced components can easily out-perform something that's had a pile of money thrown at it that has design flaws. Finally, something that costs $20K may only sound marginally better than something that costs $7K, and if you take into account the situation with modern recordings, one could even argue that you might end up with better results using components with less resolving power.

I think that there is a want or need to change.

If you have the skills to build speakers and crossovers you will change them out regularly if you enjoy the build. There are many talented folks on the Lansing heritage forums that build speakers and continually replace them with new projects (great forum by the way).

On forums with high end speakers the owners typically do not have the skill to change a set of spark plugs, but are well financed. Modifications there are changing things that are simple to change, like speakers and equipment to the latest and greatest model, power cords, interconnects, fuses, etc. and then talking about the huge, monumental and completely necessary change that it caused.

I agree with all of your comments, but "cost no object" is a relative term. Not a personal attack at all, but you have always had the top of the line speakers in this universe. Before Heritage, the flagship RF7's - new- then very talently modified, then brand new K Horns, thereafter again heavily modified, then Jubilees when they became the new peak of the mountain, again subsequently modified. It seems that the journey, not the destination, is the major source of enjoyment.

To quote the king from Mel Brooks History of the World Part I, "Don't tell me you don't do it. I do it, he does it, she does it. We all do it. I just did it and I'm ready to do it again."

I have been thinking about the lower resolution factor lately. Super high resolution is great on many recordings, but aweful on so many others. I have an old pair of speakers that I restored and they just sound so good on just about everything.

Anyway, great post.

[ZAKO]

Yes 30 years ago i paid less for the upgrade drivers i installed in the Khorn,,, A darn better investment than the $150 Paudio driver and 402 horn installed on the Jubilee,,, But technoligy moves on,,,You all can bellyache all you want about how much all this will cost you.. But was it passion that compelled a person to invest in a powerful HUMMER? or vanity? Yes technology is now lightyears ahead in driver design. I intend to make the most of it. I dont understand the retrograde ino a cheap driver like the Paudio. But that is the CO. Klipsch mentality... Remember crap is crap no matter how you dice and slice it. A good example is that K77 tweeter,,,EV dropped that unit years ago. Why dont Klipsch they let it die??? PWK nostalja ? How long are they going to keep that candle burning? But some 30 & 40 year drivers were better designed by other companys and moved on to even better designs,,,,But in all that time Klipsch did not design a build his own drivers...Heck he had the money!!! Heck the company now has the money,,, It takes topnotch engineers to develop a technology great driver....and attach it to a old technology VOIT horn. Why go halfass????

[Deang]

JBL sucks. Go find another forum.

[jwc]

The last two posts either had the word A$$ or suk. It is finally getting interesting in here.

jc

[cjgeraci]

About time. It has been getting rather stale in here lately...........

Carry on.

Carl.

[Deang]

I think we're O.K. until someone uses those two words together. []

[ZAKO]

Gee!!!!! I cant understand where all this bitterness is coming from !!! VITAVOX a earley license,e of the Khorn,, Refused to use the drivers Paul was useing... VITAVOX decided to use there own woofers, HF horn and threre own renown S1,S2 HF driver,,, They even back then whent to 3/4 lumber to make the bass bin,,, When I bought my Khorns,,, Karrenbroch an earley Klipsch dealer ,,, directed me to use other better drivers,,, Ashworth who was working with Paul also said things were not jelled on top end design,,,And listening to there systems it was obvious things it was not happytime in Hope. I talked to Carl on the phone,,, And he mentiond Klipsch is at the crossroads of some good technology,,, The Palladium will be proof of the puddung,,,I agree. Sorry Dean if i rubbed your fur in the wrong direction,,, But we all move in the direction that suits us best. I will continue to state my position, as others will,..

[JJkizak]

Maybe someone can explain why the new technology drivers are better in the greatest detail.

JJK

[ZAKO]

More transparency like an electrostatic but with greater dynamic slam for starters.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Maybe someone can explain why the new technology drivers are better in the greatest detail.

JJK

Not necessairily better, but different. All subjective. Dean's point about too much resolution is true when it comes to bad recordings.

Read all the threads before the Palladium came out where everyone was saying that they cannot be better than the older designs. Then read the responses after the Pilgrimage when everyone actually heard them.

[sheltie dave]

Better materials, like 3 pound magnet structures that generate a larger field strength than the old 25 pound alnico structure. Newer composite fiber structure that has less than 10% of the stress deformation of similar paper constructed speaker cones, in similar or less weighty construction. Newer tweeter drivers that extend well beyond 20 kHz with less grain and bite than what we might be used to hearing.

There are speakers that present great detail without being etched or harsh. I think many people have found this out as part of their individual mod programs with the KHorns, as I know of Beymas, Eminence CT, and various JBL tweets dropped into KHorns with resulting owner satisfaction. There is a lot of new for new's sake, and new for putting on the show, but there also is some valid new for a better speaker going on. Test results in aneochic chambers have validated improvements can be made, both with drivers and different lenses. While some may want to debate whether it is just a new flavor, I have heard PWK state he knew improvements could be made to any of his speakers - only you had to be really smart and work really hard to do it right.

[ClaudeJ1]

Maybe someone can explain why the new technology drivers are better in the greatest detail.

JJK

Not necessairily better, but different. All subjective. Dean's point about too much resolution is true when it comes to bad recordings.

Read all the threads before the Palladium came out where everyone was saying that they cannot be better than the older designs. Then read the responses after the Pilgrimage when everyone actually heard them.

I heard them, with my own test CD's, for quite a long time. They sound great. However, in principle, they are more like a Cornwall........Ultra Evolved, but again, it's in the evoution of technique and materials, not in operating principles. It's still a ported volume with voice coils, direct radiators, compression drivers and horns, no matter how exotic the materials get.

PWK, IMHO, was a little TOO reluctant to change at times, but like Henry Ford's stance on the Model T, he was doing just fine until it was time to change.