OT...Compact Pistols

[winchester21]

Dan Wesson revolvers? That brings back some memories. I had several including the"Pistol Pack"- never fired- which had a cool case lined with gold velvet. Like 5 or 6 barrels with lengths from 2" out to like 8" and everything in between. I stashed the thing in the safe and forgot about it. Years later I needed money to buy an expensive side by side shotgun that I could not pass up. I found the pistol pack and sold it to a collector for a mint. I assume the autos are the same company??They have a helluva reputation already.Glad to see the name back.Really cool 1911.

[Islander]

I have traveled and worked extensively in Canada. I get a whole different mindset from a personal saftey standpoint. I don't feel threatened walking around at night in Montreal. There are parts of Toronto that can get a little dicey becuase of the gang presence. My friends in Saskatchawan hate the govt and pack heat all of the time and pretty much ignore the gun laws. But I always felt pretty safe in Winnipeg and never heard of anyone that I know getting attacked.You just dont see the types and numbers of dangerous people and behavior that you do in the states. Different situation.

To answer your question- in the big cities- yes it is that dangerous, Our city came in 6th or 8th most dangerous in the US last year depending on who you believe As for tourists- the cities of Miami and Ft Lauderdale Fla actually had to have the license plate number sequences changed on the rental cars becuase the thugs were identifying/ following rental cars from the airports and robbing them.

Thanks for your informed response. It really does seem to be a different situation. Some of my in-laws moved here from LA last year. We were walking around downtown Victoria in the evening and noticed a group of loud-talking teenagers in front of the 7-11 we were approaching. My brother-in-law immediately commented, "Uh-oh, this could be trouble!", but I said not to worry and we passed by without even hearing any rude language.

It does seem to be a societal thing. There was an item on TV recently about the youth gangs in Glasgow, Scotland. It was pretty scary stuff. It's become the cultural norm for young teens to go out every weekend looking for fights "to prove they're not pansies". These weren't rough-looking boys, either. They looked like decent middle/high school kids. The reporter spoke to a woman whose husband was clubbed to death with a kid's folding scooter by a pack of 12- to 14-year-olds. When the reporter spoke to a police officer who's dealing with the situation on an ongoing basis, he said the only solution was to change the culture and that it would take years, since it's been that way for decades.

Luckily, the only weapons available seem to be knives and improvised clubs, or the streets in Glasgow would be far more deadly. As well, it seems limited to Glasgow, with nearby Edinburgh being nowhere near as violent.

[Brac]

I lived in Miami back then, we even had a local band named "dead german tourist". I carry sometimes now in Maine, but in FL, I wouldn't leave the house without a gun. However even here we are starting to see street crime spreading out.

Taking out a gun is not a display, or a threat. If you take out your gun you should be ready to shoot it.

To be clear when a life is in danger, I don't even have to know or even speak to the person I am protecting.

The statement "I have a gun" can get you arrested, or worse killed.

Just thought I would add a bit to a great discussion.

[AnalogWave]

DeanG did an excellent job taking the keys right from under my fingertips - thank you (though I don’t have the stones to call BS on someone who carries half his weight in armaments).

To fill in…

Mr. McKown, I understand exactly where you're coming from, and even though I disagree with you on some points, I don't feel it’s my mission to attempt to convert you, nor should you me. I like to think such diversity is what helps make America such a great place. That said, some of the best advice I’ve ever received is to keep an open mind and to rotate a problem or issue so as to view, discuss and understand it from all sides. I’ve learned many important things applying that guidance.

I was being facetious when I mentioned exchanging gunfire from inside an automobile. If someone approaches your car with no visible weapon they could simply be lost and seeking directions or homeless and seeking change.. BUT….. I BELIEVE the Castle Doctrine CAN apply to you in your vehicle, so pulling a weapon under such circumstances (no visible threat) MAY be okay. However, if traffic has you boxed in (or ANY scenario for that matter ) and a legitimate threat presents itself, by pulling your weapon (assuming you’ve the chance) you escalate the situation and in an instant you’re both committed - it’s him or me. If there is more than one perpetrator, you’re holding Jacks and they’re holding Aces.

I know the variables are virtually infinite and that I tend to err on the side of caution but that’s just the way I’m wired, which is again why I don’t carry. To my way of thinking, carrying a weapon creates a sort of internal tension, like walking around with a grenade in your hand, pin pulled. Losing that tension over time is the equivalent of complacency, which breeds carelessness, until one day you drop the grenade. That’s the problem with being Human – we’re HUMAN.

OP, on your stated topic I wish you nothing more than many happy hours of range time (double up on hearing protection, plugs AND muffs, especially indoors).

May your God go with you.

[dkp]

I am of the opinion that we delude ourselves when we begin thinking that crime cannot occur at anytime and in any place. Are the percentages in your favor if you live in a safe neighborhood and work in a safe area? Sure. However, I would prefer to carry for a lifetime and never need a weapon than to be in a single situation where it could have been a lifesaver and not have had it there with me. I also do not believe that my risk factor is increased very much by having a pistol on my person. It isn't terribly difficult to carry comfortably, it won't go off on its own and as long as it is safely secured in a holster, the chances of a negligent discharge are infinitisemal. This is my personal choice; I am not trying to sway anyone that carrying is for them.

A good friend from college has been my CPA for the past 17 years and works in one of the swankiest cities in Michigan. As he and a partner of the firm were walking out one day, a former colleague was walking into the building. They didn't notice what he was carrying and he, thank God, did not see them as one of his intended targets that day was the very partner that my friend was walking with. He was carrying a shotgun and used it on some of his former coworkers. Story below.

1 Killed, 2 Injured In Office Shooting

Shooting Suspect Arrested Following Police Chase

POSTED: Monday, April 9, 2007

UPDATED: 7:57 am EDT April 10, 2007

TROY, Mich. -- Police have announced they have Anthony LaCalamita, 38, in custody in connection with a workplace shooting Monday inside Gordon Advisors' Accounting Firm in Troy. Police said a 50-year-old Dexter man driving a pickup truck on Interstate 75 near Flint and spotted the silver 2007 Ford Fusion for which police were searching and called 911. "We knew who he was and what kind of car he was driving," Troy Police Lt. Gerry Scherlinck said. "Local police and state agencies were advised right away, and it appears we were successful in finding that car." The Genessee County Sheriff's Department was en route to the Ford and became involved in a short chase with the driver, later confirmed to be LaCalamita. Officers followed the car through Saginaw and pulled him over in Bay City. They said they recovered a 12-gauge pump shotgun and three bullet shells from inside the car, according to Genessee County Sheriff Robert J. Pickell. Pickell said LaCalamita was subdued when they finally caught up with him. "When you're going at speeds up to 120 mph, and he's gone through some of that -- you can imagine right after that he felt like it was over," Pickell said of LaCalamita's body language. The vehicle LaCalamita was driving was impounded and transported to the Troy Police Department, according to officials. LaCalamita was processed at the Genessee County Jail and charged with fleeing and eluding police, but returned to the Troy Police Department later Monday afternoon. Police said he is expected to be charged with murder, among other charges. LaCalamita entered the 1301 Long Lake Crossings building on Long Lake Road and opened fire on the second floor. Police and witnesses said that LaCalamita was a former employee of Gordon Advisors' Accounting Firm but was laid off last week. One person has died and two more were injured, according to Troy police. Police said LaCalamita seems to have chosen his victims carefully, shooting the first victim at the front of the suite, then charging toward the back and making eye contact with other employees until he allegedly found his two other targets. In the first few moments following the shooting, no one knew if LaCalamita had escaped the building or was going to attack others inside the building. There are 40 other tenants in the same building and workers were were trapped in their offices, not wanting to leave for fear something would happen. "All we heard was the screaming so we ran into a middle office -- our offices are all in one line -- we all ran into an office together and got under a desk," said Krista Partin, who works in the building. Steve Johnston works on the second floor less than 100 feet from where the shots were fired. "I just pulled everyone away from the reception area and made sure all the doors are locked," he said. "Then we sat there and waited for information." A police swat team searched the building from room to room, starting on the ground floor and working their way up. Police said they slowly cleared sections of the building and escorted workers outside. George Smrtka also works in the building and he said the incident is hard to fathom. "Very surreal, you always see it on TV but never think it will ever happen where you work," Smrtka said. The person killed was a 63-year-old woman from Warren, police said, but police wouldn't name the victim. A message posted this afternoon on Gordon Advisors' Web site said the office would be closed Tuesday in memory of Madeline Kafoury. Police said the injured were Alan Steinberg, 48, of Sterling Heights, and Paul Riva, 48, of Bruce Township. They were rushed to Royal Oak's Beaumont Hospital because it is the only level one trauma center in Oakland County, officials said. Hospital officials said they have both been in surgery. Families of the victims have requested privacy so no more information on their conditions will be released Monday. Troy Police officers said they have obtained a search warrant for LaCalamita's apartment, and they said they hope the search will clue them in as to why he went on a shooting rampage. Neighbors said that he was quiet and they can't believe he would shoot anybody. Rescue 4 has learned that his wife recently filed for divorce. Last week, police said LaCalamita applied for a concealed weapons permit but was denied. LaCalamita will spend the night at the Troy Police Department and is expected to be arraigned on Tuesday. Stay with Local 4 News and ClickOnDetroit.com for updates.

[mmckown]

Extremely difficult topic to give advice upon simply because I believe it involves one’s abilities, both mental and physical, more so than a legal right.

In which case you would be wrong. The feeblest individual has the right to defend themselves. As does a 250Lb professional football player. I will agree that individuals that chose to carry take on a responsibility to train and prepare themselves. It is a right that carries with it huge responsibilities.

I agree with AnalogWave on this point, which you've missed. He's not saying he believes a person doesn't have the right to defend themselves, but that the ability to do so is dependant on the person's skillsets and their ability to execute.

For course your ability to defend yourself is dependant upon your ability to defend yourself. But that was not how I took his statement. I took it to mean that if you are not a seasoned user of firearms you should not carry. And that is just plain wrong. Those who decide to carry should make a comittment to obtain at least a minimum level of profiency and weapons handling skills. Just because you aren't shooting thousands of rounds a month (something I did do for a ten year period of my life) does not mean that you should be restricted from or even decide on your own, not to CCW.

I too choose not to carry,

Why?

Probably for the same reasons I don't. 1) I live in a low crime area, 2) can't think of any scenerio I might encounter where I would be at an advantage by having a weapon on me, and 3) unless someone pulls a gun on me first -- if I shoot someone I'm going to prison.

1) Low crime is not NO crime. 2) Really? You must not be thinking very hard 3) depends on where you live and what the situation is. Personally I would not live where you are not allowed to defend yourself against bigger or knife weilding or bat shaking opponents.

...but come down firmly on the side of ownership and concealed carry for those that prove their ability to do so. It’s such a huge responsibility however, one I can only equate with bringing a child into this world, oddly enough. If you doubt your will, even the slightest bit, it’s my opinion you have no business carrying a weapon.

The first step to becoming a victim is to resolve to be one. The first step to STOP being a victim to to resolve to STOP being one, and take steps to ward that goal

Again, you missed his point. Read it again. I tell people I shoot with and teach to not confuse tactics with the will to execute. Knowing what to do and doing it are not the same thing.

Again I do get his point. It is you who refuse to get mine. Those who choose not to develope the resolve are choosing to be victims. Period. In my civilian life I have been in situations where I made the decision to shoot. In both cases my rather obvious resolve defused the situation quickly. In those instances my assailant became very quickly aware of several things

1. I was armed.

2. I was not outwardly afraid of him/them.

3. Some how their intended victim was giving them orders.

4. What ever I had in my wallet was not worth dying for.

Of note is that I HAVE NEVER HAD TO DRAW MY CCW WEAPON. Also of note is that had I drawn it I would have immediately fired.

The shear number of possible scenarios, anyone of which could leave you in legal jeopardy let alone physical, are staggering.

It sounds contrite, but better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Judged by 12 and carried by 6 can amount to the same thing if you screw up. You may screw up and just be carried by 6 nonetheless. I think it's funny how wannabe gunslingers always assume they're going to come out on top.

In todays environment it is unlikely anything but the most blatant actions would get you charged with either 1st degree murder or felony murder. Should you be so charged I seriously doubt you will be convicted of such. If convicted the odds of being executed are going to be as close to ZERO as to make the event a statistical impossibility.

Winning is never a given. However, I will stack my 40 years of firearm experience, several shooting schools (John Shaw and Chapmans to drop just a couple names) and a few hundreds of thousands (realistically on the low side) of rounds down range combined with military combat experience against most any street thug I have run across.

To be blunt I find the secong half of your comment above to be insulting and over the top. I am more than happy tp argue points with people without throwing around insults.

Basically, it comes down to the element of surprise, which is almost always with the criminals.

Only if YOU let it be that way

Please provide one example where you have the tactical advantage.

With out a weapon to defend myself with I can't. However, proper use of situational awareness techniques will help avoid the very "surprise" situations you are talking about. The few bad situations I have fallen into happened not because I was not situationally aware, but because I dismissed a possible threat because I was just "being paranoid". Had I listened to the alarm bells in my head the situations would never have happened in the first place. Your Tactical advantage is in being prepared. You determine where you go, when you go, how you go.

You can’t pull (legally) a concealed weapon until a threat is posed to you. So suddenly, everyone becomes a possible threat whose intent you must determine.

You make this sound like a bad thing. It is not. It is called situational awareness and it is something everyone, armed or unarmed should practice every minute of every day. To not do so leads to that victim thingy, and that IS a bad thing

Actually, you can't pull a gun on anyone unless your life is in jeopardy, which you will have to prove in court. Whether they are aware of it or not, most people do practice situational awareness. However, this is not the same as an armed person making a threat assessment and determining whether to draw and shoot.

WRONG. You can not shoot unless you feel your life or well being (or that of others) is threatened. And I thank GOD I don't live where you apparently do. In Michigan I am innocent til proven guilty. Most CPL carriers who defend themselves here are no billed pretty readily. And it is two completely different things to be charged and to be convicted. Judged by 12 trumps carried by 6 in my book.

I don’t know stats, but my guess is street crime is more likely to come at you in numbers of individuals vs. just one these days.

I doubt the accuracy of this statement. Even if true firearms are the great equalizer.

I don't doubt the accuracy at all. A weapon is only "the great equalizer" if it's in your hand before the altercation occurs.

WRONG again. There are multitudes of cases where the mere fact that the victim was armed defused the situation.

GUN + Potential Victim + Resolve = Bad day for your typical street thug.

And even if a lone criminal comes out of the shadows, weapon pointed, you are immediately at a critical disadvantage. You can try the old “Your shoe is untied…” and go for yours but you better be supremely confident and fast.

Back to situational awareness. If a criminal "comes out of the shadows at you" you have failed SA101.

Forget the shadows. Make improper eye contact with a seasoned street thug in the middle of the day, and he'll thump you in the head while a dozen people watch. These type people have experienced a multitude of violent engagements, and many won't rattle even if you pull a gun on them. These people also make assessments, use "situational awareness", have techniques designed to neutralize or paralyze, and know what it takes to maintain their tactical advantage. You can pass SA101 and still get the crap kicked out of you.

Sure you can. And you can get hit by lightning, or run over by a rampaging elephant. The fact is criminals are not stupid. They pick easy targets. The well dressed yuppie that refuses eye contact and cowers away from him is an IDEAL target. A person that makes eye contact and that is obviously aware of the situation and that may be armed, is not.

You may want to ignore the nut job that goes off with eye contact. Go for it. I perfer to keep an eye on him and be prepared for what ever craziness he mat decide to pull.

It has also been proven that people with minimal training can actually draw and fire at a target quicker than an assailant can pull the trigger...

Cite the study.

Not BS at all. The "El Presidente" shooting drill is based on a real happening where a mexican presidental body guard drew his weapon and shot and killed not one or two, but SIX armed men advancing on his protectee. At the beginning of the incident his weapon was holstered and the attackers had weapons out and trained on their targets (the president and his body guards).

Several years ago a NYC undercover officer shot and killed two people in a car he and they were sitting in. Both assailants (oddly enough other NYC cops, apparently dirty ones) were found with their weapons in their hands. The officer was almost charged with murder, because the police and DA, like you, did not believe that he could draw and fire faster than the other two officers could simply pull their triggers. He later proved repeatedly that he could.

The simple fact is this. It takes longer for someone to percieve a threat, make the decision to fire and then pull the trigger, than it takes a person that has decided to fire to draw a weapon and fire. It takes practice, but you do not need to be some super Pistolero to do it.

[mmckown]

DeanG did an excellent job taking the keys right from under my fingertips - thank you (though I don’t have the stones to call BS on someone who carries half his weight in armaments).

I assume you are refering to his response to my post. First and foremost I don't BS about guns.

To fill in…

Mr. McKown, I understand exactly where you're coming from, and even though I disagree with you on some points, I don't feel it’s my mission to attempt to convert you, nor should you me. I like to think such diversity is what helps make America such a great place. That said, some of the best advice I’ve ever received is to keep an open mind and to rotate a problem or issue so as to view, discuss and understand it from all sides. I’ve learned many important things applying that guidance.

I have a very open mind. I just am not going to be convinced by as you like to put, BS.

I was being facetious when I mentioned exchanging gunfire from inside an automobile. If someone approaches your car with no visible weapon they could simply be lost and seeking directions or homeless and seeking change.. BUT….. I BELIEVE the Castle Doctrine CAN apply to you in your vehicle, so pulling a weapon under such circumstances (no visible threat) MAY be okay. However, if traffic has you boxed in (or ANY scenario for that matter ) and a legitimate threat presents itself, by pulling your weapon (assuming you’ve the chance) you escalate the situation and in an instant you’re both committed - it’s him or me. If there is more than one perpetrator, you’re holding Jacks and they’re holding Aces.

And there in lies your first mistake. IT IS NOT A GAME!!!!!!!!!!

I know the variables are virtually infinite and that I tend to err on the side of caution but that’s just the way I’m wired, which is again why I don’t carry. To my way of thinking, carrying a weapon creates a sort of internal tension, like walking around with a grenade in your hand, pin pulled. Losing that tension over time is the equivalent of complacency, which breeds carelessness, until one day you drop the grenade. That’s the problem with being Human – we’re HUMAN.

Internal Tension? What the H is that? What it does do is drop a huge load of responsibility directly on your shoulders. And Hey, I guess you know better than any one else if you can hack it or not. It is a free country, you wanna be a victim, go for it.

OP, on your stated topic I wish you nothing more than many happy hours of range time (double up on hearing protection, plugs AND muffs, especially indoors).

May your God go with you.

Have a Blessed day...

Edited to remove political comment.

[theplummer]

Sorry to dive into this one quite late, but I'd like to impart my worthless wisdom.

I used to get this type of question all the time.

My pat answer is... for personal protection, there is nothing better than a Remington 870 with the mag tube opened up and a load of OO buck.

Now, that's really not very practical to tote around, so.....the next best thing is......

Pepper spray.

I know, I know, not very glamourous. But, look at it practically. No one really WANTS to Kill another human being (if you do, seek professional help).

Fact is pepper spray is More comfortable and concealable, lighter, and more effective at STOPPING and assault than any pistol ever thought about being.

Not to mention the responsibility of making sure your bullet, meant to protect you and your family, actually kills one of your own family, or other innocent bystander, during some type of altercation.

Another fact, a once or twice a year qualification with the EXACT firearm that you carry is NOT enough continuing training to stay proficient with such a lethal tool.

Think of it you could train your children how to be proficient with pepper spray and know that they would not be killed with your own, or their personal protection device.

I used to buy a small 1oz. pepper cans that had key rings on them, and give them to women that I knew as christmas presents, with instructions to carry their keys by the spray can, out of their purse when they walk to and from their cars. Then they'd always have a personal protection devise at their fingertips if confronted. I also told them not to warn an assailaint that they have the spray, instead just spray them and run back into wherever they were coming from and call 911. Easier to appologize, than have an assailaint get the upper hand.

Please think very seriously about owning a handgun. I carried one everyday for 17 years, believe me it's a HUGE burdon.

[Brac]

I think this is great advise for people not wanting to carry guns, but I have seen lots on guys on COPS take the spray and keep beating the officer.

[winchester21]

This is a great thread. Thumbs up and thanks for eveyone who has posted. I fi am not listening to my klipsch stuff or driving a sports car I am typically shooting in my free time. I raise a glass to my fellow shooters on this forum.

[mmckown]

I agree it is a funny world and it is interesting to see how other people live.

Hummm, fear of litigation trumps fear of death in your world. Which is it, Californication or Taxachewsus?

And while you hated carrying a cell phone, probably largely because of the limits it placed on your freedoms, I on the other hand enjoy carring a weapon largely due to the freedoms it preserves for me.

Does deciding to carry a firearm have responsibilities attached to it? Of course. Any time you decide to take action to become more self determining there are costs. For me it makes more sense for me to have to explain to a Judge why I shot some one than for some cop to explain to my wife why I won't be coming home again...EVER.

But to each their own. Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions. Iam sure some here would find my Sansui 9090DB and AR9s to be wanting. But for me in my world and for my tastes it fits fine, and has for 30 years. I do find the choice to be a victim slightly more important than my choice of sound systems.

[theplummer]

I think this is great advise for people not wanting to carry guns, but I have seen lots on guys on COPS take the spray and keep beating the officer.

You may be right, but even a leathally placed shot can take minutes to actually incapacitate a determined assailant.

Just think, you provide your wife with a cute little stainless Walther ppk/s .380 (I had one and loved it, that's why I mentioned it), give her all the SA training you can find, teach her to shoot like Annie Oakley, and give her all the confidence in the world.

Now one night while she's walking across the parking lot leaving work, a man hopped up on Meth, thinks that your wife's car was the one owned by the drug dealer that is really a cop (in his mind), and he's got to neutralize the threat to his freedom to move about.

He confront's her, and her training kicks in (Just like it's supposed to), she draws down and tries to disengage, only to be attacked, she fires center mass, and continues to fire until the threat ceases, but guess what, it doesn't cease, he just keeps coming, now his paranoia is no longer paranoia, he's going to die (due to her expert marksmanship), but he's got about 4 minutes of fight or flight adreneline pumping.

Now, same situation, only this time she uses Pepper spray. Statistics have proven that 98% of all human beings cannot overcome the immediate eye clamp, after being sprayed with pepper spray. Even though he may fight through it, there will be time for her to disengage, retreat and hopefully gather witnesses and a possibility to call re-inforcements.

I personally have years of experience in the practical use of Pepper Spray and I must say I have all the confidence in the world in it. It'll completely turn a confrontational situation into a calm quiet crime scene within 20 to 30 seconds.

As far as people fighting through the pepper spray on cops, I've never seen the episode's you speak of, but I'll bet they weren't using it properly, therefore the assailant was able to take an immediate defensive position against it.

Heck, I used to watch COPS and treat them as training films, of What NOT to do in this situation. If the cop had done the right thing, there wouldn't have been an confrontation, and therefore not good TV.

[AnalogWave]

I also do not believe that my risk factor is increased very much by having a pistol on my person. It isn't terribly difficult to carry comfortably, it won't go off on its own and as long as it is safely secured in a holster, the chances of a negligent discharge are infinitisemal.

I don’t know Dave… I think the operative word here is ‘very’. I personally know people who’ve had accidents with firearms. If you choose to involve yourself in the culture of guns (as I have, just not to the level of others), those around you are more likely to be armed. Sadly, discipline and experience with weapons doesn’t come quickly or easily. I’ve been to indoor ranges where the SIDE WALLS are peppered with bullet strikes and the lane shelf where you rest your weapon et al is pierced from (A)ccidental (D)ischarges. On the flip-side, without even seeking them out I’ve been exposed to video clips of law enforcement officers accidentally discharging their weapons and doing bodily injury. Not only is it their job to serve the public armed, they have to qualify with their weapon(s) every year. In other words, you’ll never be injured or die sky diving if you never sky dive (I’m talking gun ownership, not being victimized).

[AnalogWave]

DeanG did an excellent job taking the keys right from under my fingertips - thank you (though I don’t have the stones to call BS on someone who carries half his weight in armaments).

I assume you are refering to his response to my post. First and foremost I don't BS about guns.

To fill in…

Mr. McKown, I understand exactly where you're coming from, and even though I disagree with you on some points, I don't feel it’s my mission to attempt to convert you, nor should you me. I like to think such diversity is what helps make America such a great place. That said, some of the best advice I’ve ever received is to keep an open mind and to rotate a problem or issue so as to view, discuss and understand it from all sides. I’ve learned many important things applying that guidance.

I have a very open mind. I just am not going to be convinced by as you like to put, BS.


I was being facetious when I mentioned exchanging gunfire from inside an automobile. If someone approaches your car with no visible weapon they could simply be lost and seeking directions or homeless and seeking change.. BUT….. I BELIEVE the Castle Doctrine CAN apply to you in your vehicle, so pulling a weapon under such circumstances (no visible threat) MAY be okay. However, if traffic has you boxed in (or ANY scenario for that matter ) and a legitimate threat presents itself, by pulling your weapon (assuming you’ve the chance) you escalate the situation and in an instant you’re both committed - it’s him or me. If there is more than one perpetrator, you’re holding Jacks and they’re holding Aces.

And there in lies your first mistake. IT IS NOT A GAME!!!!!!!!!!

I know the variables are virtually infinite and that I tend to err on the side of caution but that’s just the way I’m wired, which is again why I don’t carry. To my way of thinking, carrying a weapon creates a sort of internal tension, like walking around with a grenade in your hand, pin pulled. Losing that tension over time is the equivalent of complacency, which breeds carelessness, until one day you drop the grenade. That’s the problem with being Human – we’re HUMAN.

Internal Tension? What the H is that? What it does do is drop a huge load of responsibility directly on your shoulders. And Hey, I guess you know better than any one else if you can hack it or not. It is a free country, you wanna be a victim, go for it.

OP, on your stated topic I wish you nothing more than many happy hours of range time (double up on hearing protection, plugs AND muffs, especially indoors).

May your God go with you.

Have a Blessed day...

Edited to remove political comment.

You sir, are definitely the type who will break before they bend. I’m smiling and chuckling as I type this because I respect and admire that. As I’ve stated before, it takes all kinds to keep society functioning and while I may be the ant that leaves the hill to find food, you’re without question the one guarding the entrance against intruders. Bravo.

I do, however, get the impression you think you’re in argument and possibly being persecuted for your beliefs. Not true. Not from me or from anyone else that I can tell.

The Jokers & Aces was simply an analogy - I’m fulluv ‘em. I take gun ownership SO seriously in fact that I choose not to carry one, as paradoxical as that thinking is to you. Even Dirty Harry once said, “A man’s got to know his limitations.” Just so happens yours are much further out than mine. And that's cool.

I think I'll exit stage left now and put my nose back into the 2 CH forum where it belongs doing research.

[Islander]

Actually, fear can be a good thing sometimes. It can keep you from doing something stupid that you may regret for years to come. And keep you alive. This in regards to life in general, not to anything in particular.

Mark, you may think you have no fear of death, but I'd bet you're smart enough to avoid potentially deadly situations, like BASE jumping or knocking over a Hell's Angel's bike when he's standing there. Sometimes fear looks more like common sense.

[theplummer]

Actually, fear can be a good thing sometimes. It can keep you from doing something stupid that you may regret for years to come. And keep you alive. This in regards to life in general, not to anything in particular.

Mark, you may think you have no fear of death, but I'd bet you're smart enough to avoid potentially deadly situations, like BASE jumping or knocking over a Hell's Angel's bike when he's standing there. Sometimes fear looks more like common sense.

That reminds me of a joke...

Do you know what the last words of a redneck are?......

Hey, hold my beer and watch this!

[Deang]

Of course your ability to defend yourself is dependant upon your ability to defend yourself. But that was not how I took his statement. I took it to mean that if you are not a seasoned user of firearms you should not carry. And that is just plain wrong. Those who decide to carry should make a comittment to obtain at least a minimum level of profiency and weapons handling skills. Just because you aren't shooting thousands of rounds a month (something I did do for a ten year period of my life) does not mean that you should be restricted from or even decide on your own, not to CCW.

I don't have a problem with any of that, I agree.

1) Low crime is not NO crime. 2) Really? You must not be thinking very hard 3) depends on where you live and what the situation is. Personally I would not live where you are not allowed to defend yourself against bigger or knife weilding or bat shaking opponents.

Right, low crime is not no crime, but here are the statisitcs for the last two months in the area where I live.

http://www.ci.kettering.oh.us/newweb/departments/police/kpd_prog_nwcs.php

Those numbers stay like that month after month year after year. No rapes, no robberies, no murders, car jackings, etc. We've lived in this area since 1997. I drive through this area every day, which leads to the highway, and straight into Wright Patterson Air Force Base, where I work. This applies to my wife as well. We live relatively boring lives -- we go grocery shopping, to church, and Blockbuster. I understand DKP's point in his last post, but that's an example of victims being murdered by someone they knew (which btw accounts for roughly half of all murders in the US). Very tough to be keyed up and ready to draw when the perceived threat level is zero. I know Bob Crites has felt like wringing my neck a few times, but he's in Arkansas. At any rate, In our particular case, I just plain don't see any point in carrying during our day to day activities. This leaves the last point -- most states, including Ohio, still maintain and apply the equal force clause. So like I said, if you shoot someone who isn't armed, better make sure you can prove yours or someone elses life was about to end when you pulled the trigger. I don't know how Oho handles shooting someone who comes after you with a knife or ball bat -- I suppose I need to find out.

Again I do get his point. It is you who refuse to get mine. Those who choose not to develope the resolve are choosing to be victims...

We weren't discussing those who refuse to develope resolve, but discussing those who can carry, but for various reasons choose not too. Just because some don't actively carry in public doesn't mean they've resolved themselves to being victims. In my case, I normally carry a Ralph Darrell folded blade and still know how to use harsh language.

In todays environment it is unlikely anything but the most blatant actions would get you charged with either 1st degree murder or felony murder. Should you be so charged I seriously doubt you will be convicted of such. If convicted the odds of being executed are going to be as close to ZERO as to make the event a statistical impossibility.

How about a nice manslaughter charge that lands you in prison for 20 years. Please show me the Michigan CCW law that permits you to shoot someone who isn't armed while exhibiting threatening posture with intent to kill.

Winning is never a given. However, I will stack my 40 years of firearm experience, several shooting schools (John Shaw and Chapmans to drop just a couple names) and a few hundreds of thousands (realistically on the low side) of rounds down range combined with military combat experience against most any street thug I have run across.

No doubt. You're well trained. BTW, thanks for serving.

To be blunt I find the secong half of your comment above to be insulting and over the top. I am more than happy tp argue points with people without throwing around insults.

Yep, it sure came off that way, sorry about that -- I was really thinking about the bravado thing in general. I've heard it from shooters most of life.

With out a weapon to defend myself with I can't. However, proper use of situational awareness techniques will help avoid the very "surprise" situations you are talking about. The few bad situations I have fallen into happened not because I was not situationally aware, but because I dismissed a possible threat because I was just "being paranoid". Had I listened to the alarm bells in my head the situations would never have happened in the first place. Your Tactical advantage is in being prepared. You determine where you go, when you go, how you go.

I feel like you're being a bit evasive. I've asked a couple of times for specific scenerios where simply having a weapon equates to having a tactical advantage. You've been formerly trained and have combat experience -- what does "tactical advantage" mean to you. All defensive handgunning involves reacting. The one reacting to a threat does not have a tactical advantage -- ever. A good handgunner can turn the advantage to their favor -- someone who shoots thousands of rounds at static targets isn't likely going to be able to do it without a good deal of dumb luck. This thread would be more interesting if we talked about scenerios and how to handle them.

...The fact is criminals are not stupid. They pick easy targets. The well dressed yuppie that refuses eye contact and cowers away from him is an IDEAL target. A person that makes eye contact and that is obviously aware of the situation and that may be armed, is not.

I definitely disagree with you on this point. Be aware, yes, but absolutely do not make eye contact. I ignore them and go about my business. This is not "cowering", it's called not drawing undue attention to yourself. Back in my twenties, I used to ride the bus to get to work. I had to take a transfer downtown. Eye contact drew the maggots to me like a magnet. I had about a dozen uncomfortable incidents before I figured it out. You look at them, and they come over and want to bum a smoke, or ask for money -- if you don't accomodate they get beligerant. I had one guy, who looked psyho as hell, say to me, "death before dishonor MF'er" -- he followed me onto the bus, got off at the same stop, and followed me most of the way home. As soon I got into the house I went for my handgun, chambered a round, and sat on the couch waiting for him to come through the door. I was absolutey primed to put the nut job down if he came through the door. If I'm in a public place now, and notice unsavory types -- I stay aware of their proximity to me, but absolutely do not look towards them or at them. It's a challenge to them, and you're just asking for a confrontation.

WRONG. You can not shoot unless you feel your life or well being (or that of others) is threatened.

O.K., I don't know why you keep using this language. A "threat" is like an "assault", which is not the same as being "battered". It's a real fine line in a bad way. CCW laws aren't written to favor us. If someone walks up to you and says they're going to kick your ***, but haven't actually done anything yet -- guess what -- you're not permitted by law to shoot them!

WRONG again. There are multitudes of cases where the mere fact that the victim was armed defused the situation.

Absolutely true. I guess we're talking about people here who didn't have the good sense to pull the trigger when they pulled their weapon.

Not BS at all. The "El Presidente" shooting drill is based on a real happening where a mexican presidental body guard drew his weapon and shot and killed not one or two, but SIX armed men advancing on his protectee. At the beginning of the incident his weapon was holstered and the attackers had weapons out and trained on their targets (the president and his body guards).

Several years ago a NYC undercover officer shot and killed two people in a car he and they were sitting in. Both assailants (oddly enough other NYC cops, apparently dirty ones) were found with their weapons in their hands. The officer was almost charged with murder, because the police and DA, like you, did not believe that he could draw and fire faster than the other two officers could simply pull their triggers. He later proved repeatedly that he could.

O.k., here's what you said, "It has also been proven that people with minimal training can actually draw and fire at a target quicker than an assailant can pull the trigger." I said "BS". As examples of those minimally trained, you cite a Presidential bodyguard and a NYPD undercover police officer. I'm afraid you made my point for me.

[Islander]

...The fact is criminals are not stupid. They pick easy targets. The well dressed yuppie that refuses eye contact and cowers away from him is an IDEAL target. A person that makes eye contact and that is obviously aware of the situation and that may be armed, is not.

I definitely disagree with you on this point. Be aware, yes, but absolutely do not make eye contact. I ignore them and go about my business. This is not "cowering", it's called not drawing undue attention to yourself. Back in my twenties, I used to ride the bus to get to work. I had to take a transfer downtown. Eye contact drew the maggots to me like a magnet. I had about a dozen uncomfortable incidents before I figured it out.

Dean is right on this. It's been reported in the press many times that gang members sometimes call making eye contact "mad-dogging" and see it as a challenge, one they sometimes respond to with deadly force. Sure, they're idiots, but they're dangerous idiots, so it's better not to interact with them in any way. Ignoring someone who may want to draw your attention to them is not cowering, it's minding your own business, or failing to respond to a possible challenge, thereby preventing a situation from ever starting.

[dtel]

Compact pistol, no thanks I want a big one, actually I don't even own one anymore but I do have a 12GA shotgun with a VERY short barrel and pistol grip that only gets 3" magnum 00 buckshot, for intruders only one shot required, then a garden hose to clean up.

Never been to a gun safety class or accidentally ever shot anything unintentionally, my Dad gave me the gun when I was about 12 for duck hunting, modified it later.

[jacksonbart]

Whats the best gun to use to shoot cancer, cause now that scares the crap out of me.