Islander Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Also, EQ won't fix a reflection off the mouth. That last few inches is where the bubble (to borrow some of Roy's terminology) releases from the horn...kinda like your bubble wand thing when blowing bubbles. If you cut off any of the material on your wand, it's not going to make as nice of bubbles, which means turbulence...and that means distortion. I learned a little about the edges of the 510 horns. The 402 horns are much larger, but so are their flanges, so the effect may be quite similar. When I first got the 510s, I didn't want to bolt them to the La Scala cabinets, so I rested the horns in grooves in Styrofoam blocks while I was assessing their sound in a couple of positions.The 510/K-69 tweeters sounded much better than the K55V/K-77 combo, but when I queried Roy about whether baffles were needed and would be a good thing to build, his response was that they weren't needed, but that the steps at the bottom of my horns would cause response anomalies. The step across the foam was about 1 inch, and the step from the foam to the front edge of the cabinet was about 1-1/2 inch, to be sure the horns wouldn't accidentally get knocked off the cabinets if someone bumped them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Also, EQ won't fix a reflection off the mouth. That last few inches is where the bubble (to borrow some of Roy's terminology) releases from the horn...kinda like your bubble wand thing when blowing bubbles. If you cut off any of the material on your wand, it's not going to make as nice of bubbles, which means turbulence...and that means distortion. After consulting with Roy, I had Plexiglas stands fabricated which allow the horns to sit with their front surfaces level with the front surfaces of the LS cabinets, with no steps at all. The 1/4" relief in the stands matches the 1/4" thickness of the flanges and the bolts have the lowest-profile heads (slot panheads) I could find, for minimum diffraction effects.I could hear the difference! Low-level vocals were more intelligible and almost-hidden details in the music were easier to hear. It wasn't a day and night difference, but anyone could hear it.Getting the last bit of clarity from speakers may not be everyone's priority. Some people like convertible Ferraris, even if the performance is compromised a bit relative to a coupe. The thing is that modifying a highly-engineered design is likely to reduce the performance. Cutting off the 402 flanges won't ruin the sound, but it definitely won't help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted September 2, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted September 2, 2009 Ole Benny (GRHS) has a million behind glass that you can get your photo taken with. I am told that this photo of this guy's system has about 1,000,000 worth of equipment. Luther said the Jubilees were about 95 percent of these 130K speakers. We both agreed there is no way on earth, and way too many other things in life, to make it worth 122K for an extra 3 to 5 percent. Thanks for the photo Luther Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Actually the Acapella Triolon Excalibur are a tad bit more than that. Some where in the range of $170,000+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I like the idea of painting the k402 horns, but another good idea, and one that would work better for my own WAF, would be to use stretchy grill cloth and make a "sock" that fits over the front of the horn and ties in the back. With the flanges off and the edges smoothed nicely, there wouldn't be a problem with the grill cloth tearing. Visually it would be a smaller horn with a simple black cloth that would be more acceptable in the average living room. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I have to ask- DCR?? D= decorator C= African Mahogany? How did C get used to describe this wood type? R = Raw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Congrats Travis. The Jubs are beautiful. And I'm sure that they sound even better than they look. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted September 3, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2009 I like the idea of painting the k402 horns, but another good idea, and one that would work better for my own WAF, would be to use stretchy grill cloth and make a "sock" that fits over the front of the horn and ties in the back. With the flanges off and the edges smoothed nicely, there wouldn't be a problem with the grill cloth tearing. Visually it would be a smaller horn with a simple black cloth that would be more acceptable in the average living room. Greg I'm waiting for your "Kit" on this. TW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 ...By cutting off the flange you may be eliminating a necessary "boundary" when the wavefront leaves the mouth and goes into free space... The second issue is whether you would be compromising the structural rigidity of the horn itself. That flange may actually prevent some flexing...Just here to second these two points that Tom makes. You would think that you need to look in Beranek to see the effects of this bit of advice. And I would run some structural stiffness calculations to see any structural effects. I don't think that Roy put those flanges there just for mounting the K402 to a piece of plywood behind a screen. This brings up a more general response: It occurs to me that one probably doesn't buy Jubs because they are necessarily pretty. "Pretty" is more like a Khorn or something with a European heritage... Chris Those flanges are there solely for the purpose of mounting flexibility in various commercial applications. These aren't hooty tooty audiophile speakers, they're big ol horns. I can assure you, there would be absolutely no audible difference with or without the flanges. Besides, just tweak the EQ! The horn would be fine structurally without the flanges, the plastic is thick and very stiff. If one was concerned about it, a frame could be attached to the back of the horn to help stiffen it. Greg,I stand corrected - I do not believe that there are any real acoustic issues with removing the flange from the K-402 horn. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 ...but another good idea...would be to use stretchy grill cloth and make a "sock" that fits over the front of the horn and ties in the back...Greg, If you come up with any workable solutions, I'd like to hear about them. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Ok this one is from left field. What would happen if you had the 402 on a table next to the bass bin instead of sitting on top of the bass bin? Next question, what happens (besides narrowing of field) when you rotate the horn 90 degrees? I'm not saying we would do any of these, I'm just bored at work and doing some brain storming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted September 3, 2009 Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2009 Kind of the same question, what would happen if Travis would turn his 402's a little compared to the pictures, would it affect anything ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Why not just give it a try? What's to lose? You'll get a few technical comments on this probably but since it is easy to try..........what the heck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 The stretch cloth was the first thing I thought of while in Hope and seeing the one finished bass bin that sat in the lab. I told Seti if the 402 was on top and had black stretch grill cloth over them many would reconsider their WAF;-) I bet with shaved flanges with a little overhang would look sweet however what would happen to you sound by lowering the 402 down 3 to 5 inches? Thinking about Trav putting some nice metallic laquer on the 402 makes me want a pair of black gloss bass bins with black grill cloth and a nice rich sky blue metallic on the horn. Sure would be appealing to me and go with my black BAT gear and their bright blue LED's[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I am trying to get a picture of "stretch cloth" around the K402. Unfortunately I am confused and getting two different images. The first would be a cloth stretched around the mouth, but only pulled back to just behind the mouth. Here the sides of the horn and the driver would be clearly visible from the sides. The second is a "sock" that goes around the mouth and is pulled all the way back to where the throat (or driver) is. This would cover most of the horn and perhaps the driver as well. Somehow, I am not sure I am getting Greg's suggestion. Actually, my confusion gets worse since I have this strange image of black panty hose from a big woman being used as a prototype. Please help me get these images out of my head. Once they are in there, they are difficult to get rid of. -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I'm waiting for your "Kit" on this. TW LOL. I'm waiting for there to be more hours in the day. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I stand corrected - I do not believe that there are any real acoustic issues with removing the flange from the K-402 horn. Chris Chris, I could just as easily have been wrong about the flanges not having any affect. My gut told me that there would no audible affect so I went out on a limb. Regarding the concern about the structural integrity of the horn without the flanges. I work with all kinds of different materials every day, and I've been working with my hands since I was very young, so I have a pretty good handle on what will work and what will not when it comes to structural integrity of things. It's engineering, just without the degree. I'm not 100% sure that taking the flanges off will not cause some problems with the horn shape, but I am 100% sure that whatever problems there are can be solved very easily with a frame built onto the backs of the horns. I would have no problem walking into my shop tomorrow and flopping the 402's onto my table saw to cut the flanges off. So where did the new information about the flanges come from? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted September 3, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2009 Chris, I could just as easily have been wrong about the flanges not having any affect. My gut told me that there would no audible affect so I went out on a limb. Roy confirmed your gut. He said he designed them without out regard for a border or flange and he did not feel it would make any difference. However, I have been unable, thus far, to convince him to try it out on one of his "standards" in Hope and get measurements from the Chamber. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted September 3, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2009 I'm just bored at work and doing some brain storming. Please don't do that, every time you do that it costs me money. And please, please don't come to the conclusion that I need to buy a new house. Thanks in advance. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 If you come up with any workable solutions, I'd like to hear about them. Chris I cant' remember the name of the speakers right now, but I had a surround sound setup a couple of years ago that had cabinets that were flat black painted boxes, and they wrapped black stretchy grill cloth around them and had ties that gathered the socks up tight on the tops and bottoms of the cabinets. Then they had cherry, or piano black wood pieces on the tops and bottoms to cover the gathered cloth. It was a pretty slick way to build cabinets. They looked really nice and I could tell they were easy (read cheap) for the company to build. So what I got from looking at those speakers was that the cloth was stretchy enough to be gathered around the cabinets, but strong enough to be sewn or folded and bound somehow to hold together where the string gathers and pulls it together. I don't know what kind of cloth that is. Some cloth I've worked with seems like it wouldn't hold up to being pulled and gathered together like that without ripping. Once you get the right cloth, it seems like maybe a sock could be made that would at least go around the front of the horn, and maybe even all the way around the driver, and you would simply pull it tight and tie it. It would take some experimenting. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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