speaker of room treatments

[leftwinger57]

Hi guys,

I've been watching and reading a couple of forums and been hearing alot about room treatments. I fully understand that hard surfaces and certain furniture can affect the sound of the best gear around. So, for some one like me who has both H/T system and more recently aquired 2-chl- rig I have to wonder what I could do to my living rm which houses both systems. The room itself is about 18x14 w/ a large area rug hardwood under that and very old sheet -rock walls. In addition I have a plate diplay and other chachkis around the room.I'm on a fixed income so baffels and drapes would not be an option.My small Klipsch 500s are either wall mounted or the fronts are on the t.v. table. The Infintys are directly on the floor .I do have some decorative nonesense all over the room , but most are heavt lamps and end tables.Btw there's no wife for decorating sense.

H/T----Yamaha RX-V665avr->Yamaha ysd dock Klipsch 500 set w 8in pwrd sub-> Denon1940ci cdp

2-chl rig----Adcom gfa555 200wpc ->Onkyo P-301pre --> Infinity SM112s --> Denon 1940ci cdp -->Shure 240Pro headphones -->Samsomps-15 plug/pwr strip

[Groomlakearea51]

It may not be as bad as you think. The first thing to do is move stuff around and find out where things sound better or worse. After you isolate a particular frequency that is resonant, etc, and/or a particular "spot", then you can work on just that problem. The easiest way is to move as much stuff out of the room except the speakers in the position you want them. Then start bring stuff back in, one thing at a time and play with the location.

You may end up just buying a couple throw rugs, maybe some foam absorption panels, etc.

[H]

[Don Richard]

A few months ago I visited an old friend who had a pair of Khorns in a very cluttered living room, 18X22X9 ft. There were bookshelves against the walls, furniture spotted around everywhere, an exercise bike to the rear, and a large older TV right in the middle of the front wall. About the only thing that was "right" about the setup was that there was a clear path between the speakers and the sweet spot. Driven by a Sony 2 ch reciever, the Khorns sounded magnificent.

I began to wonder about what I had heard, absolutely no room treatments and great sound. Subsequent research revealed that a room full of "stuff" has a lower Q for any room modes that are present. Frequency peaks caused by room modes are lower in amplitude than in an empty room and hence cause fewer audible problems.

Were you experiencing problems before you began reading about acoustics on the Internet or only after? You may need less treatment than you were led to believe, and may be able to improve things quite a bit just by moving furniture and/or the speakers.

[dtel]

I tend to use this one chair in the living room where clean clothes end up before folding. []

One load is OK 2-3 loads of clothes makes the room a little more dead sounding. [:|]

Very adjustable.

[DrWho]

What improvements would you be hoping to achieve with the room treatment?

[artinaz]

Firstly, the higher frequencies travel more light light rays, straight and bounce of walls. The lower frequqncies because teh wavelength is much greater, travel as waves, so they are more like ripples in a pool. You have to combat them differently.

There are a couple of things you can try.

For the higher frequency, you can a absorber at the first reflection point. Imgine you have a light on the tweeter position, the point it would bounce off the side wall and reach you is teh first reflection point. Similarly there are first reflection points on the ceiling, floor and rear walls. The side wall is teh most important. If you carper on teh floor, that takes care of thinsg there. Doing this will improve the imaging and teh clarity of the higher frequencies and midrange.

You can search for owens corning if you want a DIY solution- thats what I did.

For the lower frequencies, you can combat them with bass traps. Once again look for diy bass traps. These go into corners and they sort of absorb the ripples in a swimmming pool. if your room had problems- small rooms do- certain frequqncies will be bulled and some will be accentuated greatly - resulting in boominess.

There are two ways to correct these- through electronic eq and with bass traps. There are pros and cons to each. For the electronic solution, there is teh behringer feedback destroyer, velodyne sms-1 and the antimode.

I ue a combination of all the above in my media room.

[quadklipsh]

iv also been very upset with my room acoustics.

the system is RF3s a marantz pm-6 and sony X33ES cdp.the room is a 22x23 x 14feet high.stairs ways behind the sitting couch.

i cannot just move the speakers and the rig down to another room . this is the only place where big speakers are allowed to be set .

it occurs to me that the low frequencies are not full bodied.and that the higher frequencies are reflecting and overwhelming. the imaging is acceptable.the sound isnt pleasing . it isnt a relaxed sound . its not something you can sit back with and it will put you to sleep .NO.

a friend (who has experienced ears) dropped by yesterday . he has years of expertise with tube amps solid state power amps and electronics .he also built a couple of tube amplifiers . the DIY thing and i heard one of em and it sounded really good at his place.

he sat in my sitting position and played his selected CDs that he brought.some english/ indian classicals in very good recording.and then some vocals.

after trying different tracks and playing a little bit with the amplifier MARANTZ PM-6's tone controls. and bringing the speakers out in the room by 8 to 10 inches more , we couldnot find any settlement . and he pointed out that the highs are not very detailed because of overwhelmed upper mids and that the lows had no ENERGY below the deficient region of 80 hz all the way down to the 30s.

the tracks he said are loaded with cello and grand piano notes and that it has a lot of low frequency material to test any speakers for in the lows..

what he summarised was :

1) The low frequencies are not delivered with energy and there a serious deficit of low frquencies below 70 hz.

2) three to four db elevated frequencies around 1500hz.

3) highs are not as detailed and fully delivered ,perhaps there are some cancellations.

4) the sound isnt very relaxing ,musical or enjoyable..it could be better...

he was kind enough to sit for a few hours and that we had long discussions .....

he said he would bring a few more cds to audition the system thoroughly in another session and that was too early to diagnose the issues ...

He gave options.

1) to put an equalizer in the loop

2) treat the room with various absorbants .and bass traps.

3) to analyse if it was the speakers ,cd player or the amplifier at fault, by trying other combinations...

by his visit and his incomplete analysis , it has come to my attention that im not enjoying my system at its best .heck , not even 50 percent of its best performance .

sorry,but this thread sounded appropriate for this account . i know im not helping much at the moment but will surely add in some more info as soon as i tweak a bit more and have the other audio sessions with him.

ill try to improve my sound to its best performance level and would love to let you know what we'v done to get it .

tc

[DizRotus]

Room treatments are generally overlooked. It's not brain surgery[] but it can be both tricky and rewarding.

As mentioned above, a cluttered room can be quite good acoustically. We've all expereinced the clap echo in a room without carpeting, furniture or window treatments. Start adding stuff and the room will shift from overly live toward more acoustically dead. Move stuff around and add and subtract furniture, carpet, blinds, etc., to see how tthe ssound changes. Just don't put the stuff between the sweet spot and the source.

Nice restaurants frequently have large windows covered by stained wood blinds with cloth tapes. While they look nice, they're primary function is to tame the room acoustically. Other window treatments would deal with sun control and be easier to clean, but they don't have the same impact on the sound of a large space filled with noisy diners.

Listening rooms in audio stores--remember what those were--tended to be somewhat dead, due to the large number of speakers in the often small room. Unless they moved the subject speakers before auditioning, they were unlikely to be properly located to sound their best. The passive speakers would absorb much of the higher frequency sound from the speakers being auditioned. It's no surprise that the preferred speakers sounded much different in your space than they did at the dealer.

It may not be as much fun as new caps, cables, drivers, etc., but treating the room can be more rewarding at less expense.

[garyrc]

I, too, like cluttered rooms with shelves, etc., for diffusion. I would think:

• Don't take things out of the room
• Put inexpensive foam absorbing pads only at the two first reflection points on the side walls, at ear level
• Use diffusion as much as possible, and absorb as little as possible, except for a carpet and at the two first reflection points ... unless experimenting tells you otherwise.
• Next time you get a preamp, or AV peamp/processor, or receiver, consider getting one with Audyssey in it .. it is reputed to work better than equalizers, and works on the time domain as well as straight EQ. A really good dealer will let you take an Audyssey equipped unit home to try out during a time when the store is closed (you might have to put down a refundable security deposit).

Overselling multiple acoustical absorbers for listening rooms and home theater may be a very profitable enterprise. When talking to dealers, or reading about these devices, inhale deeply to see if you detect snake oil. Some people use inexpensive Corning insulation enclosed in inexpensive fabric .... sparingly ..,,... search this forum for Corning. The best sounding listening room I have ever been in had no absorbers (except for a carpet), and lots of diffusion, including a very uneven surfaced brick fireplace and old fashioned, high mass, 2" wood blinds

[Groomlakearea51]

"Overselling multiple acoustical absorbers for listening rooms and home theater may be a very profitable enterprise. When talking to dealers, or reading about these devices, inhale deeply to see if you detect snake oil."

Ahhh! The old taste test for "acoustic treatment kool-aid" !!! [Y]

[H]

[SWL]

It may not be as much fun as new caps, cables, drivers, etc., but treating the room can be more rewarding at less expense.

[Y]

[Taz]

Question due to my ignorance. How about tapestry on the walls to reduce reflections? Possibly on inch or 2 from the wall? Might increase wife approval factor. Maybe Pendlelton wool blankest in attractive pattern etc. Or would it be better to mount something like this on insulation board? Just asking.

John

[Groomlakearea51]

The "Martha Stewart Collection" from Wal-mart..... [][][]

[H]

[garyrc]

Two nice, soft tapestries on the wall, one at each first reflection point only, might help but probably wouldn't be as good as 4" thick Sonex with anechoic wedges, or Corning pads covered with thin fabric. Hanging the tapestry out from the wall by one or more inches is an interesting idea. It may sway in the breeze, though, if your speakers are anything like mine. Putting foam or Sonex behind it might help prevent sway and make it work better. I sure wouldn't start with more than two tapestries, though. Most sound rooms I've been in that were treated by the owners are overdamped / too dead. This goes for some of the movie houses set up or treated since about 1980, too! Some have acoustical pads every few feet up the sidewalls and the rear wall, and are dull and uninteresting sounding. The best theater I've ever been in, with the best sound for both music and dialog, was the Coronet in San Francisco, set up for 70 mm and 6 channel stereophonic sound by the Todd-AO people. It had live, but non-parallel side walls, huge curved curtains in the front following the curve of the original Todd-AO screen, and carpeted aisles.

[Marvel]

Hanging the tapestry out from the wall by one or more inches is an interesting idea. It may sway in the breeze, though, if your speakers are anything like mine. Putting foam or Sonex behind it might help prevent sway and make it work better. I sure wouldn't start with more than two tapestries, though.

Get the good looks with the intended results... Thats what we need.

I recorded in a studio in the mid '70s... sooooo dead.

[mark1101]

I turn my system on in the basement and if it doesn't sound good, I go upstairs and listen to it from the kitchen. If it sounds bad in the kitchen then I just go out in the backyard. That usually sounds pretty good.

[quadklipsh]

lolz

[Chris A]

How about tapestry on the walls to reduce reflections?

I was surprised when I opened my Cyril Harris book (Handbook of Noise Control, 2nd Ed., 1979, McGraw-Hill, Table 21.1). It lists typical acoustic absorption coefficients for several architectural and acoustic treatment materials as a function of frequency. The absorption coefficients for heavy tapestries were fairly uniform all the way up the audible spectrum - even more so than Dow Corning acoustic fiberglass panels.

My understanding of the density of the tapestries that Harris tested is that they approach the weight/thickness of relatively thick bed comforters but are not filled with "fiber lite" man-made material, but instead something that is like heavy cotton or wool batting.

Possibly one inch or 2 from the wall?

Actually, if the tapestries are made of heavy material, spacing them out from the wall would actually be preferential: this is the same technique used in bass traps.

Or would it be better to mount something like this on insulation board?

You don't need to mount them - in fact, they may be more effective acoustically if hung from the ceiling or from a curtain rod near the ceiling. They do not need to be "mounted".

My $0.02

Chris

[dtel]

I turn my system on in the basement and if it doesn't sound good, I go upstairs and listen to it from the kitchen. If it sounds bad in the kitchen then I just go out in the backyard. That usually sounds pretty good.

If that were big doors on your back wall you could just turn your speakers and have a backyard Woodstock...........without the mud..........untill the police visited.

[mark1101]

It's been a few years and the police still haven't found me. Over memorial Day weekend I had the MCM system maxed out indoors (which is very loud outdoors as well), plus a pair of cornwalls outside with my Peach and 100 watts of McIntosh behind them till 4 AM.........when I woke up on my lawnchair. My niece who lives about 1/2 a mile away said it was loud and clear at her house all night long. Still.......hasn't been a problem. I did that Saturday night, Sunday night, and all day Monday.