I've got it bad...K-402 upgrade?

[Islander]

Well, never one to leave well enough alone, I've already started looking into upgrades for my unopend, NIB khorns.

Upgrades are to correct perceived flaws and improve existing performance. If you haven't heard your new speakers yet, you don't know what you've got, so how would you be able to know what you've gained with your mods?

As other members have mentioned, it would be a good idea to listen to them in stock 2011 form for at least a while to get used to how they sound. Then try to find an example of what you have in mind and listen to it. The latest Khorns are already quite improved, particularly in the crossovers, over the older models.

Upgrades and mods can sound great to one listener and disappointing to another, so it's a good idea to go a bit slow and educate your ears before doing any modifying.

[Dandoyen]

Islander,

Understood, and thanks for the advice (that goes for everyone)! I will definitely enjoy my factory-direct sound. UPDATE: Roommate just informed me they arrived last night! They're sitting in my dining room (asking for pictures of the boxes I'm that excited). I'm looking forward to my extensive Klipsch education. Let the journey begin.

As I said earlier, this was/is mostly for discussion's sake. Days between missions here don't allow for a whole lot of opportunity in the ways of liesure activities (you can only watch the same DVD so many times), and every time I read something that brings forth a question, I ask it here. Y'all have been awesome in your guidance/input. As always, I leave here a little wiser, and way more excited.

Also, Coytee, thank you for that picture. That was exactly what I was searching for when I posed the original question.

Can't wait to return home and give these bad boys a listen, and although I'll enjoy these I'll always be looking to improve. Afterall, the journey is half the fun!

[dtel]

Craig: I think it's great that you have found products that you think sound excellent. Enjoy them!

Actually, many forum members and people all over the world think these products sound excellent.

Once again you managed to dodge answering the question whether or not you have heard these products, so I bid you adieu.

Craig.

There a few people making different horns and I have no reason to think they don't sound good. That is not really where I have a problem. To me if I buy a replacement midrange I want to know it's completely tested and proven to be better than what I am replacing and tested with the other parts it's designed to go with.

When I say tested I don't mean with someones ears, or a free downloaded program and a $80 Mic, why should I trust someones ears when I don't trust my own to be able to hear everything going on with a horn and it's matching with other designs.

I don't have a problem with most of the people doing this, it's just when someone not knowing and thinking it's a proven replacement buys not knowing there buying "just how it sounds" and nothing more, and there not cheap. If you buy on just the sound and know that ok, i'm with that fine.

I have done enough wood working over the years to make horns myself, I don't because I could only go on how it sounds, and a couple of diy test. I have more experience in woodworking than diy audio and want to know my speakers are proven to be doing what I think I hear.

I hope most building horns do fine, I have nothing against them or the idea of making a better replacement, until they make pompous claims almost like there PWK's lost brother who taught him everything. [+o(]

[Blvdre]

I doubt the small manufacturers typically have the resources and personnel to do the design and measurement.

Have you ever given the small manufacturers horns a chance? My guess is no!

I have tried Trachorns, Fastrac's, Volti Horns, and all of them sounded excellent.

Seems all you are concernd with is constant directivity. I hope you have alot of traps for the reflections.

Craig...

There are plenty of reviews of the small manufactuerer's horns, no need to get nasty. Tom was just stating an opinion; kind of a "better safe than sorry" approach. Concerning reflections, there aren't necessarily more reflections with a CD horn, as compared to a tractrix or exponential (dependednt on the dispersion geometry of the horn), but the difference being that the reflections of the CD are flatter in frequency response (a good thing in my experience). BTW, I have Dave's tractrix horn upgrade (and excellent mountiing plate) for my LaScalas, and love it.

[DrWho]

Craig: I think it's great that you have found products that you think sound excellent. Enjoy them!

Actually, many forum members and people all over the world think these products sound excellent.

Once again you managed to dodge answering the question whether or not you have heard these products, so I bid you adieu.

Craig.

What about the people that have heard some of the homebrew products, but want or have heard something better? Should they not share their experiences?

It seems the problem with the homebrew stuff is that criticism is taken very personally, but nobody hesitates to bash the bigger manufacturers. Just an interesting observation is all.

[Johnny's Jill]

What about the people that have heard some of the homebrew products, but want or have heard something better? Should they not share their experiences?

That is not the case here. An opinion about a specific product was not shared, however a blanket statement about small buisness was made.

I can see there is little point of trying to stick up for the small builders in this group, but aparently it's ok to bash them.

I have nothing more to say on this subject.

Craig.

[garyeanderson]

I like Dave and his products. I also Like Greg, Dana, Al, Dean, Bob (others here too) and their products, the same goes for most of the builders/contributors. They offer their time to share and display what can be done with a bit of talent, determination and some knowledge. These folks know a bit about what they are doing, most have been at it a long time and if not, they were in a related field. They take products and offer an alternative and that is a nice thing. What these folks don't need are Cheerleaders, it hurts their image. Craig, you have stated your position and I think that if you enjoy what you are hearing and that is great, please invite folks over and let them hear what your hearing too, but please let Dave do the promoting of his products here. Its seems like a fine line selling your goods on a competitors forum and that line is not drawn the same in everyones minds.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

[mark1101]

The best upgrades I ever heard on Khorns were when the backs were enclosed and the K401 was replaced with a wooden tractrix (FastTrac / VTrac / ALK horn), and ALK's extreme slope networks were used as well.

I had Khorns and have heard many sets and nothing came close to this combination. The key in my opinion was enclosing the backs to tighten the bass.

I would not recommend a CD horn or a K402 for Khorns in a mid-sized room in a house. A CD horn is for a BIG place. It is also unecessary complication. You would need to change your system to an active crossover and digital processor to get it right.........and you might never be satisfied. This means multiple amps and lots more money.

In many tests we did as a group with the homemade tractrix I mention above..............they were all excellent..........very similar..........and a marked improvement over the K401. All of them fell far short of the K402 when we tested them against it................but again just overkill for Khorns in my opinion because you can't just install the K402 horn you need to add lots more to make it work right. Not so with the wooden tractrix..........a much more cost effective improvement.

[mikebse2a3]

I would not recommend a CD horn or a K402 for Khorns in a mid-sized room in a house. A CD horn is for a BIG place. It is also unecessary complication.

Mark I have to strongly disagree based on my personel experiences. The constant polar qualities of the K402 horn is very important in my ability to integrate the loudspeaker system with the room to develope the excellent imaging, clarity/tonal balance and sense of envelopment. In any typical home listening room the constant polar qualities are important because they allow the indirect soundfield to have a balanced wideband frequency range that reachs a closer to diffusive state sooner which is very important in maintaining the qualities of reproduction I mentioned earlier.

Speaking for myself if I still owned Khorns and wanted to modify them I would enclose the backs(built in corner as some have done)of the LF horns(this would also look better with the large K402) and add the K402 or seriously look into the Klipsch K510 as another option.

Also speaking for myself after helping a friend update his Klipschorn with the current production Klipschorn's crossover/drivers I believe it is the most accurate and best balanced version to date. If you can't get jaw-dropping realistic reproduction from the current Klipschorn(or any Klipschorn for that matter) you've got room/setup challenges that need to be addressed.

mike tn

[DrWho]

I dunno, that khorn LF sprays its upper passband energy all over the place...might help to have some wider polars at the xover to help line up a bit better.

Also, most rooms don't have a flat power response (even when treated because they're too small) and there is also a need for extra LF energy to increase the density of the semi-reverberant decay at those frequencies. Collapsing polars in the vertical would be one method to tailor the energy launched into the room without affecting the on-axis response.

I definitely think the beaming of the classic Klipsch exponentials is too dramatic, but you do see some amount of beaming with the K402. You might recall there being way too much HF energy when using a BMS coax - even though it measured the same on-axis. I attribute this to much wider HF polars in an untreated room.

I think something like the K403 would be a much better fit to the khorn LF, and would also be easier to voice. The K403 is also taking the classic Klipsch collapsed polars, which will have a voicing more similar to the original khorn....which in rooms where the stock khorns sound nice, would be without a doubt a perceived improvement in all regards. The K403 also allows you to go 2-way. I dunno if it would fit in the tophat and all that shnazz, but that's a different issue.

I actually think it's a shame that more people aren't targeting going 2-way...at the end of the day it is going to be cheaper and better, provided the appropriate xover magic is implemented.

I better get back to work...

[Dandoyen]

Thank you for the input thus far. I'm learning alot from the discussion alone. The wealth of knowledge and experience amazes me.

I've got a lot of listening to do. I'm actually very familiar w/ the tech concepts. I work in the largest anechoic in the world back home, but deal mostly w/ aircraft engines and have ZERO experience with any these horns []. I've got tons of leave when I get back, and am thinking I'm going to need to start finding where these configurations exist. Should be some fun travels ahead. Call it a personal education.

If you can't get jaw-dropping realistic reproduction from the current Klipschorn(or any Klipschorn for that matter) you've got room/setup challenges that need to be addressed

I'll take care of the room, but this has me very excited!!

[mikebse2a3]

If you would like to learn more about the reality and misconceptions of past/present day sound reproduction and (acoustics and the interaction of loudspeakers, room and listener) and haven't read any of Toole's research papers I would highly recommend the following book to you. Also do a google search for any papers by him.

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, by Floyd E. Toole

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092

mike tn

[mark1101]

MIke,

Thanks for chiming in. Of course you are right. But you are not an average audiophile either (no offense to anyone or the original poster).

The oringal poster has not yet owned Khorns and my recommendation was based on keeping it simple and avoiding active systems.

You may disagree with me again but I never thought it was a good idea to run the K402 with a passive network due to the complicated filter circuit, dramatic cost increase of audiophile components on the board, and the fact that you are "stuck" with your board implemented EQ. I always felt Roy created a passive to spare those who were not acquanted with active systems some headaches.

I always felt the proper way to implement the K402, and realize its full potential and flexibility is to implement an active system. I was just trying to avoid the original poster undo complications.

[PrestonTom]

Mark, I agree with you about the advantage of using an active crossover. It also has the advantage that you can do time alignment of the drivers.

Correct if I am wrong but I thought there was a "practical" schematic publically posted by Roy (Delgado) for a passive K-402 network. It was practical in terms of a relatively low parts count and provided some CD boost that would be required. I know there are other much more elaborate passive designs for that horn. I think my memory is intact, but how would I know?

BTW, I have done mock ups with a K-510 horn (the K-402s little brother) on a Heresy and a La Scala. I have an Active DSP based crossover and also an electro-acousic measurement system (HORNimpulse - based), so I was able to do the design and measurement for those combinations. The La Scala (as a 2-way with time alignment and L/R24 crossovers) both measured well and sounded pretty good.

But we are digressing. The OP is about to get a new Klipschorn that is going to sound fantastic. Let's not get him off-track with all this talk of making mods.

[Marvel]

Correct if I am wrong but I thought there was a "practical" schematic publically posted by Roy (Delgado) for a passive K-402 network. It was practical in terms of a relatively low parts count and provided some CD boost that would be required. I know there are other much more elaborate passive designs for that horn. I think my memory is intact, but how would I know?

You are correct. Rigma also built some with no expense spared on the parts. Those who have heard them said the system sounded exceptional.

Bruce

[Coytee]

I'm going to need to start finding where these configurations exist. Should be some fun travels ahead

You might fill in your profile so we know where you consider home to be.

[Blvdre]

There are also many other competent CD horns to choose from that could be implemented with a relatively simple passive network (as opposed to the more complicated 402/passive combo).

[Dandoyen]

I have definitely underestimated the technical expertise of the forum members here. I may have framed my initial question differently had I known the knowledge-base that existed in this forum. I'm happy to delve into numbers if the discussion takes that route.

To set the record straight, regarding headaches or simplicity of passive vice active networks, that is of no concern. Although my primary area of expertise is radar/avionics and engine acoustics, I've designed and programmed several linear circuits (and a TON of filters) in each of those areas (avionics particularly - think along the lines blocking certain frequencies and jamming capabilities). And after all, a crossover is just a filter. Give me a schematic, I can build/evaluate it. I know what to LOOK for from a good speaker/horn (or crossover) from an instramentation standpoint. I have actually built speakers before, but that was long ago as an undergrad (that class was fun!). 2 weeks and a very basic knowledge of what I was doing at the time didn't lead to the most stellar result. I was happy it made a sound. Never touched the subject thereafter until now. I've progressed since then and grown my knowledge-base considerably. So, if integrating different HF/LF systems evokes complexity, bring it on. I gladly accept this challenge. What I DO NOT KNOW, however, is what to listen for. I need to start bridging the gap between the two. What does the expected (ideal) response SOUND like? This is where I'm excited to evolve. I know the science, but not the art.

Though this is my first pair of Khorns, I'm not unfamiliar with the sound. Outside of the trips to the audio shop with my father as a kid, I've got a couple of buddies with Khorn systems, although I've never heard a modified system. The two systems I've heard most are 78 Khorns and 89 Khorns (if memory serves me) respectively. For what it's worth, I absolutely loved them. The original question here was posed seeking knowledge, and you all have definitely deliverd thus far! The scope of the post has far exceeded my expectation. I've heard the suggestions to enjoy the factory sound, and believe me I will and I had no intention of implying it was insufficient. However, I'm a tweaker at heart, be it cars or speakers I'm always looking to dabble. The pursuit of knowledge doesn't stop. To that end:

If you would like to learn more about the reality and misconceptions of past/present day sound reproduction and (acoustics and the interaction of loudspeakers, room and listener) and haven't read any of Toole's research papers I would highly recommend the following book to you. Also do a google search for any papers by him.

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, by Floyd E. Toole

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092

Thanks for the info/recommendation Mike. I read two of his papers last night. I like his writing style. I'm about to go fly here, but I have ordered the book. Surprisingly, Amazon ships to Afghanistan about as quickly as they do to California...Anyway, the process of returning state-side can take up to a week with all that's involved. Looks like I finally found a good way to pass the time. Looking forward to the book. Thank you for the recommendation.

[erik2A3]

I agree that it would be good to listen to stock configurations first in order to establish a base line for comparison against anything else you might like to try, whether it be a product of a large corporation or small, yet possibly very competent manufacturer (which, I believe, the highly regarded founder of this company also once was). Try to audition, if you can, examples of everything you may be interested in and base your decisions on what you, personally come to like most -- regardless of the size of the company that produced it. Whether hand made jewelry, amplifiers, or anything else -- small industry is certainly not necessarily something to avoid, in my opinion and experience. That said, I've been very pleased with the original metal horns in la scalas and k-horns, but can't help be a bit curious about some of the designs of others. It never hurts to try anything as far as a possible modification, and in fact can help reinforce your impressions. And beyond that, be as safe as you can and enjoy time at home with your family. Erik

[RRFL]

If you would like to learn more about the reality and misconceptions of past/present day sound reproduction and (acoustics and the interaction of loudspeakers, room and listener) and haven't read any of Toole's research papers I would highly recommend the following book to you. Also do a google search for any papers by him.

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, by Floyd E. Toole

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092

mike tn

I think you should listen to what these various small dogs have to say, they continue to amaze me and are like encyclopedia, wow I so no nothing.