"Reel" Music again...

[Mallette]

I think I posted a couple of months back that I'd finally located a competent R2R...and almost everything else audio...after several years on on and off searching. Tom Tran at "Save on Sound" in Houston. HIGHLY recommended. Tom has his quirks...M-F only, no credit or debit cards, no email. Cash or check. However, I just picked up my Sony TC-765 and it's blowing me away. I don't know what it weighs, but it's gotta be 70 lbs at least.

Ron (LoneLobo) and I went over after lunch yesterday. Ron wanted to stop at a pro video place, so we had an excuse. Tom's shop is loaded with vintage gear. Fine turntables, classic tube amps, speakers, and even old wall clocks. Seems Tom can fix almost anything. My deck, unfortunately, needed a complete replacement tensioning board circuit. Lord know where he found it, but he did and it's working perfectly. I paid Ron 25.00 for it 8 or 10 years ago, and the repair was 325, so I've a total of about 375.00 in it. FMV appears to be greater than 600.00 so I feel good about it. Can't thing of anything else at that price that can deliver the sound this thing does.

Christy called while we were on the way back...can't get away from the Forum, donchaknow. I put her on speaker while she checked on Ron's leg and general health and then exhorted us to grab a cabin on the next upcoming dtel cruise adventure. Not going to work this time for me, but one of these days I GOTTA do this. It's got to be a riot.

Anyway, after struggling up the stairs with this beast and hooking in to my DBX 4BX, I started with "The Glory of Gabrieli," a classic recording of extraordinary quality. I've had a copy since it was released in the 60s and added several more over the years. Grabbed this R2R a couple of years ago but had never heard it.

WOWEE...Like pristine vinyl, but better. 1.2 expansion on the DBX and the background hiss disappeared, while the true dynamic range emerged. That 4 second decay of St. Marks was delicious to the last drop! The brass fairly jumped out about 4 feet in front of the Frazier Elevens, and the voices were silky smooth.

Went to the ridiculous from the sublime, following with "Giant Pipes," a tape sent to me by DWILawyer a couple of years ago. Extraordinary theater organ, with "Shine on Harvest Moon" and a host of other "standards" played on an enormous, high-pressure theater organ of extraordinary palette and range. Ron groaned a bit, but methinks he protesteth too loudly.

Went from there to a recording I made of Allan Parson's "Tales of Mystery and Imagination" fresh from the shrink wrap in 1976. I'd given it 1.4 compression on my DBX 117 back then, so I maxed the 4BX to 1.6 expansion. Totally black background at high levels and what a slam when the full band came in! Just like hearing the record straight from the package back in the day. Still have the disc, but I rather doubt it's fared as well as this tape.

Well, lot's of digitizing to do now and then there are the couple of thousand R2R recordings on Ebay to ****** from. Grabbed one yesterday for 6.50 total delievered... Editions de l'Oiseau-Lyre no less. There WILL be more!

Dave.

[bracurrie]

Well, lot's of digitizing to do now and then there are the couple of thousand R2R recordings on Ebay to ****** from. Grabbed one yesterday for 6.50 total delievered... Editions de l'Oiseau-Lyre no less. There WILL be more!

Dave, Congrats on your Sony R2R. I grabbed a Revox B77 4 track and refurbished it about a year ago. Its remarkable how well it does even at 3 3/4. How do you decide on good R2R tapes on Ebay? I am looking for those R2R tapes that were created with mastering optimized for R2R. Also, are you digitizing the R2R tapes or other sources? All the best. Brad

[Panacea Engineering]

Dave,

It absolutely amazes me how a thirty or forty year old tape can sound so good. I am sure that it has to do with the quality of the machine and the tape heads. Since I got the Studer, and when I play it behind the Pioneer 909, there is really NO comparison to describe the difference in sound. The Studer is so much more detailed in what you hear, compared to the 909. I am actually thinking about selling it. I can honestly say that tape, in MY opinion is much better than vinyl......YMMV

This last group of tapes I bought (200 +) has some great Organ stuff in it along with a bunch of new tape. I got them all for less than a dollar apiece.....! There are some great "FINDS" to be had in the RtoR tape world.

[CECAA850]

I'm gonna have to come hear it once you get your sub built[*-)]

[Boxx]

I still have my old (originally blank) "Realistic" tapes, that I recorded on from FM radio many years back. I would sit next to the stereo receiver and reel to reel (old Sony Tapecorder) and wait for a song that I liked to be played and I would record it. Needless to say I generally missed the first couple of seconds of each song, but the rest of the recording was fine and they still sound great today. My how times have changed....

Since those days I still record and listen to my tapes. However my recording techniques have improved somewhat.

[Mallette]

Well, I am going to be at my nieces wedding and leaving for North Ark in a few.

Will respond next week.

Dave

[CECAA850]

Well, I am going to be at my nieces wedding and leaving for North Ark in a few.

Will respond next week.

Dave

Just grinding your gears Dave.

It's funny how life gets in the way of audio and projects in general. I just made a 4 day driving trip to north GA this past weekend. This coming weekend I have to go to my daughters best friends wedding. Weekend after that is a garage sale to get rid of some of Dads old things. My current subwoofer project is collecting a nice layer of dust[:$]. I have no room to talk.

[kaiser SET say]

leaving for North Ark in a few

Dave, if you come through Little Rock ping me and your welcome to stop by and have a listen. You may even have a few digital pointers for me[]

[seti]

leaving for North Ark in a few

Dave, if you come through Little Rock ping me and your welcome to stop by and have a listen. You may even have a few digital pointers for me

leaving for North Ark in a few

Dave, if you come through Little Rock ping me and your welcome to stop by and have a listen. You may even have a few digital pointers for me

Yea go by kaisers and my place. Btw NW Arkansas is incredible this time of year.

Five oh one nine two oh five eight nine two.

[Travis In Austin]

Went to the ridiculous from the sublime, following with "Giant Pipes," a tape sent to me by DWILawyer a couple of years ago. Extraordinary theater organ, with "Shine on Harvest Moon" and a host of other "standards" played on an enormous, high-pressure theater organ of extraordinary palette and range. Ron groaned a bit, but methinks he protesteth too loudly.

Dave,

I sent you that tape in the hopes that it would rekindle your love of R2R. I am glad to hear that you went to the effort to get that great Sony deck back to 100 percent, and I am glad you are playing that tape. There is just nothing that compares to a good quality tape through a good deck. I brought a still sealed copy of Kind of Blue back to a Klipsch gathering in Maryland at LarryC's place. We put it his Revox, and people were blown away.

Travis

[Travis In Austin]

Dave,

It absolutely amazes me how a thirty or forty year old tape can sound so good. I am sure that it has to do with the quality of the machine and the tape heads. Since I got the Studer, and when I play it behind the Pioneer 909, there is really NO comparison to describe the difference in sound. The Studer is so much more detailed in what you hear, compared to the 909. I am actually thinking about selling it. I can honestly say that tape, in MY opinion is much better than vinyl......YMMV

This last group of tapes I bought (200 +) has some great Organ stuff in it along with a bunch of new tape. I got them all for less than a dollar apiece.....! There are some great "FINDS" to be had in the RtoR tape world.

I agree with you 100 percent about how good tape can sound. If they
have been properly stored and handled the prerecorded tapes just sound
incredible.

It is not really fair to compare your Studer to your
Pioneer. I am assuming your Studer is two track, and so you are
looking at about 25khz in bandwith and probably close to 75db S/N ratio (even better if
you are running at 30 IPS) compared to maybe 55db S/N on the
pioneer. If it was a well preserved prerecorded 2 track tape (which were not really made after about 1959) , or a Tape Project 2 track you were listening to on your Studer there is not going to anything better than that in any format. Let me know if you are going to sell you 909. I love mine.

Travis

[jcmusic]

I think I posted a couple of months back that I'd finally located a competent R2R...and almost everything else audio...after several years on on and off searching. Tom Tran at "Save on Sound" in Houston. HIGHLY recommended. Tom has his quirks...M-F only, no credit or debit cards, no email. Cash or check. However, I just picked up my Sony TC-765 and it's blowing me away. I don't know what it weighs, but it's gotta be 70 lbs at least.

Ron (LoneLobo) and I went over after lunch yesterday. Ron wanted to stop at a pro video place, so we had an excuse. Tom's shop is loaded with vintage gear. Fine turntables, classic tube amps, speakers, and even old wall clocks. Seems Tom can fix almost anything. My deck, unfortunately, needed a complete replacement tensioning board circuit. Lord know where he found it, but he did and it's working perfectly. I paid Ron 25.00 for it 8 or 10 years ago, and the repair was 325, so I've a total of about 375.00 in it. FMV appears to be greater than 600.00 so I feel good about it. Can't thing of anything else at that price that can deliver the sound this thing does.

Christy called while we were on the way back...can't get away from the Forum, donchaknow. I put her on speaker while she checked on Ron's leg and general health and then exhorted us to grab a cabin on the next upcoming dtel cruise adventure. Not going to work this time for me, but one of these days I GOTTA do this. It's got to be a riot.

Anyway, after struggling up the stairs with this beast and hooking in to my DBX 4BX, I started with "The Glory of Gabrieli," a classic recording of extraordinary quality. I've had a copy since it was released in the 60s and added several more over the years. Grabbed this R2R a couple of years ago but had never heard it.

WOWEE...Like pristine vinyl, but better. 1.2 expansion on the DBX and the background hiss disappeared, while the true dynamic range emerged. That 4 second decay of St. Marks was delicious to the last drop! The brass fairly jumped out about 4 feet in front of the Frazier Elevens, and the voices were silky smooth.

Went to the ridiculous from the sublime, following with "Giant Pipes," a tape sent to me by DWILawyer a couple of years ago. Extraordinary theater organ, with "Shine on Harvest Moon" and a host of other "standards" played on an enormous, high-pressure theater organ of extraordinary palette and range. Ron groaned a bit, but methinks he protesteth too loudly.

Went from there to a recording I made of Allan Parson's "Tales of Mystery and Imagination" fresh from the shrink wrap in 1976. I'd given it 1.4 compression on my DBX 117 back then, so I maxed the 4BX to 1.6 expansion. Totally black background at high levels and what a slam when the full band came in! Just like hearing the record straight from the package back in the day. Still have the disc, but I rather doubt it's fared as well as this tape.

Well, lot's of digitizing to do now and then there are the couple of thousand R2R recordings on Ebay to ****** from. Grabbed one yesterday for 6.50 total delievered... Editions de l'Oiseau-Lyre no less. There WILL be more!

Dave.

Hi Dave,

Glad to hear about your new found sound that's awesome tape is where it's at!!! Now I had a really nice Sony TC 765 for awhile real nice machine and sounds great but, in all fairness you can not compare it to a Studer!!! I have an Otari MX 5050 BII and a Studer A 810 these are studio decks and the difference is night and day. Listening to some of my 7.5 tapes on the modded Otari is something you just have to hear, listening to my Tape Project tapes on either my Otari or modded Studer is something to die for!!!! (Well almost) Anyway glad to hear you are back into tape we need more tape people.

[dtel]

Very nice Dave, I know tape sounds good, I got away from it probably 30 years ago. Like an idiot I traded a Akai for some new technology back then a cd player. Tape was the only thing that sounded like a LP that I have ever heard.

[jcmusic]

Very nice Dave, I know tape sounds good, I got away from it probably 30 years ago. Like an idiot I traded a Akai for some new technology back then a cd player. Tape was the only thing that sounded like a LP that I have ever heard.

Not only does tape sound like an LP, it actully sounds better than an LP. Remember most Lp's were made from an orignal tape!!![~]

[seti]

Very nice Dave, I know tape sounds good, I got away from it probably 30 years ago. Like an idiot I traded a Akai for some new technology back then a cd player. Tape was the only thing that sounded like a LP that I have ever heard.

Not only does tape sound like an LP, it actully sounds better than an LP. Remember most Lp's were made from an orignal tape!!!

The only problem is that there is alot more vinyl out there than tape. Now if you are into doing your own recordings that would be fun. Hmm I need a stereo Nagra RTR and some great mics..

[dtel]

Very nice Dave, I know tape sounds good, I got away from it probably 30 years ago. Like an idiot I traded a Akai for some new technology back then a cd player. Tape was the only thing that sounded like a LP that I have ever heard.

Not only does tape sound like an LP, it actully sounds better than an LP. Remember most Lp's were made from an orignal tape!!!

Years ago probably around 30 there was a place somewhere around Tulane Ave in NO, they sold albums on tape and they were very reasonably priced, I found them because that's where I would buy the Maxell 12" blank tapes, I think they did repairs also ? It's been a long time but that Akai 630 had a good sound, I should have kept it.

[Boxx]

Very nice Dave, I know tape sounds good, I got away from it probably 30 years ago. Like an idiot I traded a Akai for some new technology back then a cd player. Tape was the only thing that sounded like a LP that I have ever heard.

Not only does tape sound like an LP, it actully sounds better than an LP. Remember most Lp's were made from an orignal tape!!!

Years ago probably around 30 there was a place somewhere around Tulane Ave in NO, they sold albums on tape and they were very reasonably priced, I found them because that's where I would buy the Maxell 12" blank tapes, I think they did repairs also ? It's been a long time but that Akai 630 had a good sound, I should have kept it.

I'm still using my Akai 747. I have recorded from cd and dvd (audio) to tape and the result is better than the source. I'm going to keep this unit.

[Travis In Austin]

I'm still using my Akai 747. I have recorded from cd and dvd (audio) to tape and the result is better than the source. I'm going to keep this unit.

Boxx and Mallett,

Boxx, you have a great deck there! You should keep it. In seeing the discussion about the various decks in this thread it reminded me that it is the "HEADS ARE WHAT MATTERS MOST" (HWMM). Boxx, your deck has some of the best heads ever developed and were used on both their Pro and consumer decks, Glass/Crystal Ferrite. The critical path for tape is obviously first the source itself; that being the tape--the condition it was in, how it was stored, etc. The next step is the heads, and it is the most critical part of the whole chain as far as reproduction is concerned. There is too much about head design and build to go into here but it is what made Ampex the gold standard in recording, not Studer, MCI, 3M, Otari. To compete these companies would either inovate better tape paths (I.e., 3M and Isoloop) or offer a lower cost alternative. Ampex had a whole department of engineers that did nothing but R&D on heads and everyone was chasing them. A few of the asian manufacturers were able to catch up towards the end, Teac/Tascam (they were licensed to build Ampex last machines) and another was Akai.

After the heads, but nearly equally as important on a Pro deck, the key is to get the tape to move over the heads in the exact same location, at the exact same speed, over and over again. This is what the transport system does and this is the main difference between Pro and consumer decks. Good Pro decks had to be able to operate all day, going backwards and forwards 100s of times per day. They also have to be easily calibrated for the varous types of tape they had to record on or play back from (calibration is called allignment). You only need to see a Studer A Series deck operate one time to know what a great transport system it has. You can actually hear it and see it with your eyes and ears.

The Pro decks had to come up with a compromise between head wear and duribility. It is important if you are getting a Pro deck to use for playing tape at home (Repro) to know what the primary design and use of that particular deck was for. Was the primary purpose mastering, editing, repro quality, recording, playback in radio stations, education, etc? Because, depending on what the purpose was, you are going to either have a compromise in the transport, recording and/or Repro quality.

For example, the Studer A810 has one of the best transport systems every built. It has locate and editing functions that are incredible and the machine is very easy to allign. BUT, they only have average Repro/Record specifications. The S/N ratio is 61 db for the regular heads, and only 62 db for the highly prized and sought after Butterfly heads. The 1 db increase in the signal to noise ratio is due to the butterfly heads having a 2.75 mm track width vs the standard 2.0 mm width. Mallett, your beautiful TC-765 has the exact SAME S/N ratio as that, with 4 tracks compared to two tracks on the Studer. A Studer A810 at 7.5 IPS, which is the speed the better precorded tapes play at, has a frequency response of 30Hz to 16Khz. Those are perfectly acceptable numbers for a Pro deck, and at 15IPS the high end jumps to 20Khz on the Studer which is where you want it. But for the person wanting to primarily play 7.5 IPS precorded tapes at home, this is not really the deck to have (setting aside for the moment that the Studer is 2 Track and most people are going to want a 4 track deck to play tapes on). Mallett, your TC-765 has a FR of 30Hz - 25Khz at 7.5 IPS, which is exactly what you are looking for in a good home Repro deck. There is nothing that can be done to change those specs on either deck other than to replace the heads with something else and completely rework the electronics. I'm not talking about relapping the heads, or buying new ones, those specs are for brand new heads, in perfect alignment. Electronics after the head will not improve S/N ratio or FR. HWMM

Otari MX5050 BII2 series are great decks. They were designed for radio stations, for primarily Repro purposes, and also used in a lot of universities and educations instutions. They can be abused by kids learning, and at radio stations where they probably didn't have a full time engineer to align them and maintain them. They were a much cheeper alternative to getting Ampex or Studer if you were simply going to be playing the most recent 7.5 IPS 2 track version of America's Top 40 over your radio station. Stations would receive their syndicated programming on 1/4" two track tape and someone would pop it on the Otari hit play and then watch a program sheet to know when to hit pause so they could play a local commercial from their CART machine.

Otari MX5050 BII2 with the 4 head option are very popular with folks who got into the Tape Project because they Repro 2 Track at 15 IPS, in the IEC/CCIR equalization, which is the speed and equalization of Tape Project tapes. The BII also came with a 4th head option that allows you to Repro 4 track consumer tapes with NAB equalization used on US prerecorded tapes. (Canyonman, does Otari have 3.75 IPS playback speed also?). It is easy to switch the EQ on the back of the deck with the flip of a switch, and you change from 2 track to 4 track by sliding a switch on the head stack. So you have ONE deck, and it can play back both Tape Project tapes and prerecorded 4 track tapes. BUT, again, it is HWMM. The S/N on the Otari on 2 track at 7.5 IPS/IEC is 62db, which is very respectible, better than the Studer. On four track/NAB it is also 61db. That is less S/N which of course equates to slightly more noise than your Sony Mallett. The FR at at 7.5 IPS on the Otari is 20Hz to 18Khz, Mallett that is 10 on the bottom end of your Sony, but you have more top end.

Another deck that is very popular with Tape Project customers are the Technics decks with the Isoloop type transport. They are available in a number of models that have both a two track and 4 track Repro capability. However, they are only available with NAB EQ, unlike the Otari, and so a lot of folks with that machine both tube Repro amps from Bottlehead.com that you wire directly to, guess what, THE HEADs, that offer NAB and IEC Eq, and balanced inputs and outputs (that is a topic for a whole different discussion of why it is nice to have balanced inputs/outputs on a deck, but unless you have balanced electronics up the line, like BAT, not worth discussing at this point). Bottleheads has two head preamplifiers available, one is about $800 or so and another that is someting like $4K. By the way, MX110 and other vintage Mac preamps have a built in head preamp that sounds absolutely stunning. It is not difficult to do the direct wire on this if anyone wants to try it out. The FR response on the Technics heads are stunning, 20Hz to 25Khz at 7.5 IPS, and 30Hz to 30Khz at 15 IPS which is as good or better than just about any deck out there, Pro or consumer. They are not as strong on noise, 60db S/N ratio.

Before I talk a talk about consumer decks let me bring up the gold standard, the Ampex ATR 100 series machine. Tape Project tapes are recorded on these machines. There is a very good reason for this--it is the HWMM. The S/N Ratio ofr 15 IPS/IEC is 74db! That is over 10x quieter than a Studer. The FR at 15 IPS is 20HZ to 20Khz.

As far as consumer decks for listening to 4 track prerecorded tapes there are a lot of different ways to go. Towards the end, in the 80s the top of the line consumer decks were achieving some remarkable things, they were every bit as good as Pro decks in terms of Repro. They don't have the beautiful fluid transports of a Studer or an Ampex, but than who plays R2R 12 hours a day, 200 days a year at home to where you would even need that. The Akai, the Technics, the Revox all have superior Repro capability than most Pro decks because they were designed for primarily hi-fi repro in mind and used heads designed primarily for Repro and HWMM.

For example, Akai 747 with those great GX heads have a FR of 25 Hz to 33Khz, and a S/N of 65db. WIth built in DBX and using EE tape I think the S/N ratio jumps to someting like 80db or higher.You you have close to 100db of dynamic range, equal to CD.

The Revox B77 has a great transport and respectible S/N and FR.

One of the last consumer decks was the X2000 R, it has a FR of 30 to 40Khz (thats Forty) and a S/N of 65db. You don't even need noise reduction with that good of a ratio, but if you want to put your amp up to full blast and don't want to hear any hiss just punch the DBX NR in and you have a S/N of 100db and dynamic range of over 115db exceeding the DR of CD.

Mallett, the specs on yous deck are incredibly good, and now that you have got it back up to spec I can only imagine how great it sounds. It has as good or better S/N ratio and FR of Pro decks including Studer, 3M, MCI, Roberts, Stellavox, Nagra and Otari because it has heads that were designed and made primarily for playback of 3.75 and 7.5IPS prerecorded tapes. And, HWMM.

I hope to be able to hear it some day.

Boxx, my Aunt and Uncle live half way between Ovilla and Desoto, I would love to hear you deck one day.

Travis

[Marvel]

My TEAC 3340S only has a 55db sn and it is really quiet. I can only imagine some of these other decks.

Bruce

Wow and Flutter:
0.04% at 15 ips.
0.06% at 7-1/2 ips.

Frequency response:
25-24,000 Hz at 15 ips.
25-22,000 Hz at 7-1/2 ips.

Signal to noise ratio: 55dB.

Harmonic distortion: 1% at 1,000Hz normal operation level.

Stereo channel seperation: 55 dB.

Fast winding time: 140 seconds for 1800 feet.

(4) RCA inputs and (4)outputs.

(4) 1/4 microphone inputs on faceplate.

(2) Headphone jacks for 1+3 and 2+4.

Dimensions: 17-3/8 Wide. 20-1/2 Tall. 8-3/4 Deep.

Weight: 50 lbs.

[Travis In Austin]

My TEAC 3340S only has a 55db sn and it is
really quiet. I can only imagine some of these other decks.

Bruce,

I always really liked that TEAC 3340S, it was pretty much a TASCAM Pro deck.