Youthman's First Heritage Speakers...the LaScalas

[Youthman]

As a side note, I just used the THX Amplifier Power / SPL Calculator and they suggest I need 9 watts RMS / 17 Watts Peak to achieve Reference Level (which is 105dB for speakers and 115dB for subs). I guess I have just a little bit of headroom with my 200 watt x 7 Sherbourn amp.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Youthman

[Youthman]

I keep reading where you're needing to turn the speakers down. I believe you've posted it twice now. I had the same thing happen to me when I first got my RF-7's. I'd crank it up to a good level and find myself turning it down. It remained that way till I had Dean rework my crossovers. Since then I've had several people tell me that "the speakers don't hurt your ears even when they're so loud you have to shout to the person next to you". To me stock Lascalas are a little hot in the mid range where you're most sensitive under loud conditions. Just my 2 cents.

Until I calibrate the system and match the levels, I won't know if it is a result of the higher efficiency (thus playing louder at my typical listening levels on the receiver) or if indeed I need to have Dean "Tame the Horn".

[NBPK402]

As a side note, I just used the THX Amplifier Power Calculator and they suggest I need 9 watts RMS / 17 Watts Peak to achieve Reference Level (which is 105dB for speakers and 115dB for subs). I guess I have just a little bit of headroom with my 200 watt x 7 Sherbourn amp.

How far away are you sitting?

[NBPK402]

I think its because is it really -12 or was it trying to set them even lower and it maxed at -12.

So what you are saying it is not because there is more than a 12db variance in sensitivity between the mains and surrounds, but that it wants to move them down to 75 db or 85 db which is more than 12db since the La Scalas are 105db, correct?

[Youthman]

How far away are you sitting?

Oh wait, I calculated the distance from the screen. The main speakers are currently are a few feet closer than that since I don't have them behind the false wall yet (might be another reason I keep turning them down).

So currently, they are about 6ft away.

[garyrc]

Online, some were saying 75dB while others were saying 85dB.

I'll go by what THX says here.

My understanding is that real reference level is whatever provides a full scale (fs -- the maximum that can be on the recording, in our case Blu-ray) signal of 105 dB through the main channels, and 115 dB through the sub, from the main listening position (e.g., Audyssey microphone position). I say "whatever" because some systems make their test noises or pings at 20 dB below fs (professional) and, because that makes the test tones too loud for most consumers, some (including Audyssey) place their test tones/pings at 30 dB below fs. Both provide the same maximum peak levels (105/115) at the MLP, therefore both are ways to calibrate to Reference level. . Neither -20 dB fs, nor -30 dB fs is very conceptually usefull, now that different systems place their tones at different numbers of dBs below fs. The -20 dB that professional THX used was a convenience -- the maximum peak level was what counted. Also, neither of these levels(-20/-30) were "averages;" The true average level (mean; arithmetical average) depended on the movie (Transformers v.s. About Time), and/or the music on the soundtrack.

[Youthman]

I forgot to link to the THX Amplifier Power / SPL Calculator

[Heritage_Head]

I think its because is it really -12 or was it trying to set them even lower and it maxed at -12.

So what you are saying it is not because there is more than a 12db variance in sensitivity between the mains and surrounds, but that it wants to move them down to 75 db or 85 db which is more than 12db since the La Scalas are 105db, correct?

I think so.

[NBPK402]

How far away are you sitting?

Oh wait, I calculated the distance from the screen. The main speakers are currently are a few feet closer than that since I don't have them behind the false wall yet (might be another reason I keep turning them down).

So currently, they are about 6ft away.

My new setup should be 2/3 watts from 13' away according to the calculator... I am def gonna be loving the "T" chip amps for the horns!

[dtel]

As a side note, I just used the THX Amplifier Power / SPL Calculator and they suggest I need 9 watts RMS / 17 Watts Peak to achieve Reference Level (which is 105dB for speakers and 115dB for subs). I guess I have just a little bit of headroom with my 200 watt x 7 Sherbourn amp.

A little

So currently, they are about 6ft away.

Thinking about this AND the other quote together, you better be very careful with the remote, even after you move them back a few feet, you could easily go louder than you want to hear. Press the wrong button and you could scare people.

[Rhetor]

.

... While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup. Got to thinking Audyssey could not be wrongs, especially since it worked great with my previous 7 channel Reference setup with MultiEQ XT32 on the Denon 4311. The K-horn fronts, the La Scalas rears, and three Belles (center and sides) all bottomed out at -12db. The four Herseys ranged from -3.5 to -6.5 dB. I did dozens of runs over a year pretending I just was not hearing right because it previously treated me so well. I finally in desperation got an SPL meter and everything came to life and was balanced.

An attenuator on each speaker? I am not even sure what an attenuator is or looks like. I would like to know more.

The bottoming out at -12 dB is what screws things up with efficient speakers. The following is based on Audyssey's solution for the problem,

I only know how to use the attenuators in Audyssey set up when you have a separate preamp/processor and separate power amps. The attenuators would go between the pre-pro and the power amp. If you have an all-in-one AVR, you may be able to use a processor loop to put the attenuators in, but some AVRs no longer have those. Sic transient gloria.

In-line attenuators have a female RCA plug on one end, a male RCA plug on the other, and a little 2+" brass or gold plated tube in between. Inside the tube is some circuitry that reduces the level by a certain number of dB. You would want it reduced by 12 dB. They are available for sale online. My audio dealer (an engineer) recommended double checking the number of dB of attenuation (since it can vary a bit with the amplifier circuitry on either side of the attenuator) by putting an SPL meter on a tripod and measuring pink noise with and without the attenuator. I did, and it was almost exactly 12 dB difference, and all of the attenuators measured the same.

You shouldn't keep the attenuators on permanently -- just use them to run Audyssey. You should use them on every channel, and the sub, so each channel is reduced by the same amount. They are cheap. When you are through running Audyssey, your super efficient speakers (Khorn, etc), which are more efficient than Audyssey planned for, will be turned down by the correct amount, rather than stopping the attenuation short (at what would have been -12 dB without the attenuators). My left Khorn got set for -2 dB (equivalent of -14 dB), my right Khorn got set for -2.5 dB (equivalent of -14.5 dB), and my Belle Klipsch center channel got set for - 1.5 dB (equivalent of -13.5 dB). When you take them off, the system will be playing 12 dB louder than Audyssey thinks it is, so Audyssey recommends regarding -12 dB on the Main Volume Control as setting the system for Cinema Reference Level (peaks at a maximum of 105 dB at the main listening position -- microphone position -- with peaks at a max of 115 dB from the subwoofer, just like nthe filmmakers set and heard the sound). People who don't have super efficient speakers like we do use 0 on the main volume as Reference level. Reference level is still too loud for most people, so most play at a somewhat lower MV setting. I usually use somewhere between - 16 and -18 (which would be somewhere between - 4 and - 6 for people with normal speakers).

Abnormally yours,

Gary

Thanks, Gary . . . A little google and you explanation clarified for me.

Running all channels except the fronts right off the Denon 4311 . . . just the fronts are on a separate amp. So, that leaves me only the fronts and sub to use attenuator on. And right now a I am not interested in separates all around.

Can you recommend a test DISK I can secure you mentioned in another post? And any idea if using the DISK would be an advantage over the digital SPL meter and tripod I currently have things set with?

I am coachable here.

Billy

Edited May 20, 2014 by Rhetor

[Youthman]

Wake just sent me a few more renderings with some tweaks on the front wall.

I'm pretty excited!

[WakeJunkie]

As a side note, I just used the THX Amplifier Power / SPL Calculator and they suggest I need 9 watts RMS / 17 Watts Peak to achieve Reference Level (which is 105dB for speakers and 115dB for subs). I guess I have just a little bit of headroom with my 200 watt x 7 Sherbourn amp.

To protect your speakers you should probably just run straight off your receiver.

I can keep that Sherbourn amp cozy for you. ;-)

[CECAA850]

With the new platform drawing, there's plenty of room for a couple subs. You could probably lay two F-20's under there or actually use them for part of your platform.

[Youthman]

To protect your speakers you should probably just run straight off your receiver. I can keep that Sherbourn amp cozy for you. ;-)

I bet!

With the new platform drawing, there's plenty of room for a couple subs. You could probably lay two F-20's under there or actually use them for part of your platform.

The only problem with that is I need some of the bottom area for storage for my equipment.

[CECAA850]

How much room do you have left after storage?

[Youthman]

Not sure yet.

[CECAA850]

An F-20 laying on it's side is 60". They're also about the right height for your speaker platform. While you're at it, go ahead and put a SPUD down for your rear seat riser. Bass issue SOLVED LOL!!

[garyrc]

As a side note, I just used the THX Amplifier Power / SPL Calculator and they suggest I need 9 watts RMS / 17 Watts Peak to achieve Reference Level (which is 105dB for speakers and 115dB for subs). I guess I have just a little bit of headroom with my 200 watt x 7 Sherbourn amp.

According to Klipsch, in a 3000 cu ft room, at typical distance (which Klipsch traditionally thought of as 15 feet from the speaker), you would only need an amplifier power of 6.3 watts RMS to hit 105 dB with La Scalas (Keele, in Dope from Hope V 16, No 1, January 1977). Twice that wattage would be a common way to think of peak power needed, but allowing 10 dB would usually be considered safer. That, by coincidence, would be 63 watts for peaks. BUT these figures are NOT with by a HT properly set up for Reference level from the main listening position. If your system is set for Reference level, the SPL through the regular speakers (not sub) is fixed at a maximum of 105 dB per speaker, so that would be about 6.3 watts per speaker with the room size and distance specified above. Naturally, Reference level will not only allow each speaker to produce up to 105 dB during peaks, but will allow filmmakers to present you with sounds from that level down to a whisper.

Later on, as you say, you may move to another crossover. If shouting-to-be-heard-over-the-soundtrack levels now sound bad, or hurt your ears, something may be out of kilter(?). With our stock crossovers of c2005, our Khorns and Belle sound fine, clean, and warmish at those levels, at least with modern films on Blu-ray. CDs can be bad on occasion.

Over the years, people have takled about padding down the midrange of La Scala, Khorn, and Belle, hust a little. I may have done about the same thing by using a little bass boost, and just a tad of treble boost, in addition to Audyssey (using traditional tone controls -- the virtual sliders on screen should not be used because they will turn Audyssey OFF).

[dtel]

Wake just sent me a few more renderings with some tweaks on the front wall. I'm pretty excited!

Perfect, I would be thrilled, I really like the way that looks, and with a good sub will probably really surprise you all over again with everything in position.

I don't have any of the auto correction things talked about, just a tone. This thread has helped me understand some of it, all I knew was level balancing. Some good explanations here.

Edited May 20, 2014 by dtel