muel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 How would you propose to correct the time alignment issues in Khorns? To do so by mechanical alignment would require a 4 foot tunnel to be built into the two corners where the Khorns are located, then relocate the mid and high frequency horns there. With a digital processor it's a simple matter to dial in the appropriate amount of delay, with no butchering of the room or speakers required. The alignment between the woofer and mid isn't nearly as critical as the difference between the mid and tweeter. That's one of the reasons I put my tweeter on a separate baffle and did a physical alignment, moving the tweeter ot that back of my La Scala cabinet. It was a very audible improvement. knowing there could be (should be) reflections off the top of the LS, I tried different materials on it to see if I could tell a difference. I couldn't, but it may bother others. Making that baffle was a lot cheaper than going active. Bruce I did something similar by mounting the tweeter above the Eliptrac 400 with the drivers vertically aligned. There was a slight improvement in clarity. I put a couple of layers of felt over the top of the Eliptrac for a tiny bit of absorption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Do you guys still hear the tweeter with it sitting at the back of the cab? I have to have my ear about 6 inches from my K77 to even hear it. I'm guessing this is not a revelation in change or everyone with K's would be saying this is a must? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) The tweeter is just the "sizzle of the steak." It made me smile when I heard the change but I wouldn't call it a big change.. note: this is on La Scalas Edited July 31, 2014 by muel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 The tweeter is just the "sizzle of the steak." It made me smile when I heard the change but I wouldn't call it a big change.. note: this is on La Scalas Im gonna give it a shot this weekend Muel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Do you guys still hear the tweeter with it sitting at the back of the cab? Hear in what way? I could still tell the tweeters were there, as things seemed to be more focused (for want of a better term). btw, I had the same driver as Bob's CT125, but on an Eminence horn. Since the baffles were free standing, I just moved them front to back until the alignment seemed better/clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Just curious Marvel... if you have some felt material you might try placing on top of the cabinet in front of the baffle. Or maybe some other material. "Focused" and "more clarity" are words I would use to describe this as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Just curious Marvel... if you have some felt material you might try placing on top of the cabinet in front of the baffle. Or maybe some other material. "Focused" and "more clarity" are words I would use to describe this as well. I did... tried a few different materials and I could hear no difference. However, when I sit down, the tops of the LS are slightly above my head. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm going to assume little to no difference with the added material in my application. I don't want to talk myself into hearing a change that isn't there! Certainly, there was nothing readily apparent to my ears anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. Yea okay.. yes I have a number of times and I was unimpressed..some folks let the techno babble train there brains on how to listen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. Yea okay.. yes I have a number of times and I was unimpressed..some folks let the techno babble train there brains on how to listen... I don't think you would notice any benefit when you are moving around working in your shop. From your descriptions though I bet it sounds great! I've got everything set to try to get the optimal sound in one single spot in the room. There is a drop in quality as soon as I move. That said, still sounds pretty good even when my back is turned and I'm at my desk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Some people seem to be more sensitive to time alignment than others. We did an experiment back in the 70s with two pairs of DQ-10s. We took one pair and changed the distance between the voice coils. Keep in mind, this loudspeaker is a five-way. We kept the screwed up pair out in the listening room for about a month. All of our friends were into the better stuff of the period, and though all of them were intimately familiar with the DQ, not a single one of them could tell that they were no longer time aligned or "phase perfect". My friend Mark and myself would pull the "right" pair out on the weekends when we were off work, and spent plenty of time doing comparisons. It was pretty easy to hear the difference, but I don't think we ever did come up with a way of describing what we were hearing. I used to mess with Mark by telling him I like the messed up pair better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. Amen.......... clarity. I got to sit in a chair with my Jubilees and have my daughter change the setting back and forth for me while I listened. I think there's a bigger difference in sound between a good paper in oil capacitor and a metallized polypropylene -- and here's the best news, you don't have to be a trained listener to hear it -- my 8 year old daughter can hear the difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven1963 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. I love my music! And I have neither the time nor the inclination to go to school to get trained to listen to it. Edited August 2, 2014 by Steven1963 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. I love my music! And I have neither the time nor the inclination to go to school to get trained to listen to it. You see with many this all has nothing to do with music.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. Yea okay.. yes I have a number of times and I was unimpressed..some folks let the techno babble train there brains on how to listen... I don't think you would notice any benefit when you are moving around working in your shop. From your descriptions though I bet it sounds great! I've got everything set to try to get the optimal sound in one single spot in the room. There is a drop in quality as soon as I move. That said, still sounds pretty good even when my back is turned and I'm at my desk! I have no doubt that physically moving your tweeter back could have benefit.... My point is open up one of these devices that will do it electronically and see what you find (regardless of cost).....the benefit of time alignment with that type of device is completely destroyed by what the device does to the signal....IMHO the things are music in.... garbage out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I have no doubt that physically moving your tweeter back could have benefit.... My point is open up one of these devices that will do it electronically and see what you find (regardless of cost).....the benefit of time alignment with that type of device is completely destroyed by what the device does to the signal....IMHO the things are music in.... garbage out You do realize that it's 2014, right? What you said was true in 1970, but is no longer true today. Digital processors vary greatly in audio quality, however - basically, you get what you pay for and the better units are quite transparent. If you really believe that all digital audio devices are sonically deficient, you're in big trouble. Almost 100% of music made since 1990 has been passed through a digital device at some point. And I don't mean just multitrack recordings either. The first type of music digitally recorded for commercial sale was classical music, using the Soundstream digital recorder. The facts are that, like it or not, digital is here to stay. Digital recording has many advantages over analog, especially sound quality. A properly done 24/96 recording has every advantage over older analog efforts - including no noise, full dynamics, low distortion, and absence of wow and flutter. Of course, if one prefers to hear noise and distortion, it's easier and less expensive to realize one's dreams - you pay your money and you make your choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I have no doubt that physically moving your tweeter back could have benefit.... My point is open up one of these devices that will do it electronically and see what you find (regardless of cost).....the benefit of time alignment with that type of device is completely destroyed by what the device does to the signal....IMHO the things are music in.... garbage out You do realize that it's 2014, right? What you said was true in 1970, but is no longer true today. Digital processors vary greatly in audio quality, however - basically, you get what you pay for and the better units are quite transparent. If you really believe that all digital audio devices are sonically deficient, you're in big trouble. Almost 100% of music made since 1990 has been passed through a digital device at some point. And I don't mean just multitrack recordings either. The first type of music digitally recorded for commercial sale was classical music, using the Soundstream digital recorder. The facts are that, like it or not, digital is here to stay. Digital recording has many advantages over analog, especially sound quality. A properly done 24/96 recording has every advantage over older analog efforts - including no noise, full dynamics, low distortion, and absence of wow and flutter. Of course, if one prefers to hear noise and distortion, it's easier and less expensive to realize one's dreams - you pay your money and you make your choice. In the infamous words of Paul Klipsch BULLSHIT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. I love my music! And I have neither the time nor the inclination to go to school to get trained to listen to it. You don't have to be trained to hear increased clarity through the crossover region were the improvement is perceived when done properly because it is closer to reality. What does the " I love my music! " have to do with this..? Do you really believe how one chooses to listen to their music relates to how much they "love their music"..? miketn Edited August 2, 2014 by mikebse2a3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. I love my music! And I have neither the time nor the inclination to go to school to get trained to listen to it. You see with many this all has nothing to do with music.... It has no more to do with music than amplifiers, pre-amp, loudspeaker,...etc.....other than as tools to be used to reproduce music.. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I don't try to correct things that are not an issue. I've never been in the time alignment camp either....we're talking mini, mini, micro, micro seconds of a difference... To me it's just not audible.. That's what most untrained listeners say. You have obviously never heard a properly aligned horn system, and maybe it's best you don't. It would really rock your world. I love my music! And I have neither the time nor the inclination to go to school to get trained to listen to it. You see with many this all has nothing to do with music.... It has no more to do with music than amplifiers, pre-amp, loudspeaker,...etc.....other than as tools to be used to reproduce music.. miketn What exactly is the point of what your postings in here? They are gear heads that this hobby really has very little to do with music or the love of it... plenty of folks are in this for all kinds of reasons...some are what I call the techno babble crowd...they spend more time reading specs and debating about the importance of them then they do listening to music.. others like me can enjoy music no matter what it is playing on....I love music with my ear buds while mowing the lawn, I enjoy music in my pick up truck...I enjoy music out of the TV speaker system while watching TV... I enjoy music out of my bone stock Klipsch Belles........I just enjoy it more out of my high end audio system..........And I don't need a EQ or an active crossover to do it. My speakers and crossovers have been a progression of 12 years since I first bought my first pair of 3 sets of Lascalas. I listen to music on average 10 hours a day! I have not changed a single thing in my electronics department in the last 3 years...and the last change 3 years ago was a side ways move more to do with my business then a need to change. Take that change out and my system has been the same for nearly 10 years... but I have the joy of trying just about everything under the sun and get paid to do it on a daily basis.... I learned long ago specifications and techno babble that goes with them are completely useless in this hobby! Sure you want good specs but they will tell you zero about what something will sound like regardless of the type of gear were talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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