Brac Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I am thinking about swapping some gear, and the power to my K-horns (solid state) would go from 100 down to 65. It's in my HT which I also use for 2-channel. I would be getting rid of an Emotiva UMC-1 and a Sherwood Newcastle A-965 (100x7 amp) and getting the new emotiva Fusion 8100 Thanks for any input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Not relevant. It's what sounds better. I have a 300B SET amp that puts out 8 watts per channel, my 2A3 SET amp puts out 3.2 watts per channel but sounds better than the 300B amp. I have a 45 SET amp that puts out 1.8 watts per channel and sounds better than the 300B or the 2A3 amp. Listen to the amps and pick the one that sounds better. The specs are pretty much meaningless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't think the power difference will be a problem with the Khorns but going to the Emo receiver will be your biggest change. I can't say whether it will be an improvement or not. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 The Emotive has pre-outs. Have you considered using the Sherwood amp to power your L/C/R? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 For HT I would not go with lower power... music it's much less of an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 The power difference probably won't be noticable but going from components to a receiver should be considered a downgrade. What is your logic for going in that direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) I am thinking about swapping some gear, and the power to my K-horns (solid state) would go from 100 down to 65. It's in my HT which I also use for 2-channel. I would be getting rid of an Emotiva UMC-1 and a Sherwood Newcastle A-965 (100x7 amp) and getting the new emotiva Fusion 8100 Thanks for any input Keeping in mind that both amplifier power and speaker sensitivity affect the maximum realizable loudness, the ability to handle musical peaks in uncompressed music, extreme sound effects in film, and clipping; in general, there is only about a 3dB difference between an amplifier with 50 watt/channel and an amplifier with 100 watt/channel, assuming the speakers are identical. Essentially, the 3dB increase/decrease in sensitivity corresponds to a doubling/halving of acoustical power. Although there is much more to an amplifier and the performance for a particular situation (listening habits) and system, from the statement above, the 65 watt/channel amplifier impact on volume would be less than the +/- 4dB general frequency response of the Klipschorn speakers. What I would be interested in knowing would be the 4Ω performance of the Fusion 8100 and the ability of the receiver/amplifier to output power at significantly higher levels for short periods to accommodate musical peaks that can be found in uncompressed music or extreme sound effects in films. Of course, the extreme sound effects in films would most likely be handled by the amplifier that is part of the subwoofer system rather than by the main amplifier or receiver. There are more comprehensive articles that can be found; however, here is a short article that explains the general relationship of watts, dB and SPL. http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/the-decibel-db The Emotive has pre-outs. Have you considered using the Sherwood amp to power your L/C/R? This sure is the nice aspect of having separate components. I remember Sherwood products in the 1960s and 1970s and they always seemed surprisingly good. I believe they may not have been advertised as well as some of the major brands. The "Newcastle" designation is considered the top of the line and while there are limited opionions that can be found online, I suspect the Newcastle A-965 is an excellent performer in the price range. In addition, I believe that the Boston Acoustics A7200 is a rebranded Newcastle A-965 and seem to read positive impressions of that amp too. Actually, Sherwood Electronic Labs was originally founded in Chicago in 1953 to manufacture an amplifier designed by audio engineer Ed Miller. Of course the brand has changed a lot since then, but the company still is in the audio business. In looking at the weight difference between the Sherwood and Emotiva, I studied the inside shot on the Emotiva website and it looks like they may be using fans to cut weight in the heat sink area. See the arrows on the attached picture. In comparing the published specifications of the two, the Sherwood sure looks like a beast in a HT system. Emotiva Fusion 8100 65 watts RMS x 7 channels; <.05 THD (all channels driven) 110 watts RMS x 2 channels; <.05 THD Weight: 25 lbs. (34 lbs. boxed) Sherwood Newcastle A-965 100Watts x 7 @ 8Ω, 20Hz~20kHz, 0.02% THD in Surround Mode (Full channel driven) 160Watts x 7 @ 4Ω, 20Hz~20kHz, 0.02% THD in Surround Mode (Full channel driven) 130W x 7 (1kHz, 0.02% THD)@8Ω / Only Channel 200W x 7 (1kHz, 0.02% THD)@4Ω / Only Channel Modular Design with 7 Separate Monoblock Amplifiers Built-on Individual PCB Cards 2 Separate Power Transformers (Toroidal) Weight(Net) : 32kg (70.5 lbs.) For HT I would not go with lower power... music it's much less of an issue. In general I agree; and although it should not necessarily be an issue between 65 w and 100 w, I find that I need to pull the low power SET amps for certain uncompressed music with extreme musical peaks and go with one of my more powerful amplifiers for a full musical experience. The power difference probably won't be noticable but going from components to a receiver should be considered a downgrade. What is your logic for going in that direction? I was curious too. It may just be saving space or convenience. I’m just thinking out loud; however, depending on the goal/reasons for change, money spent on room treatments could be the wiser investment or possibly an upgrade to the pre/pro may bring greater returns? Edited October 11, 2014 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 The power difference probably won't be noticable but going from components to a receiver should be considered a downgrade. What is your logic for going in that direction? stop propagating HIFI mythology! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckAb3 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I am thinking about swapping some gear, and the power to my K-horns (solid state) would go from 100 down to 65. It's in my HT which I also use for 2-channel. I would be getting rid of an Emotiva UMC-1 and a Sherwood Newcastle A-965 (100x7 amp) and getting the new emotiva Fusion 8100 Thanks for any input I did just the opposite going from an old Denon receiver to Marantz separates for HT and am very happy with the results. I don't think the real point was going from a receiver to separates, or adding power, but rather from mediocre to really good sound in better components. I'd want to hear the results of installing the new receiver before making a final decision. I haven't heard any Emotiva products (just read various comments, some good and some not so good) but perhaps their return policy will give you time to have an in-home audition of the new receiver. Since you now have Emotiva, perhaps you could also do some comparisons with other brands. Good luck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I guess the OP can try the EMO avr and see what he thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) I am thinking about swapping some gear, and the power to my K-horns (solid state) would go from 100 down to 65. It's in my HT which I also use for 2-channel. I would be getting rid of an Emotiva UMC-1 and a Sherwood Newcastle A-965 (100x7 amp) and getting the new emotiva Fusion 8100...Thanks for any input The difference between 65W and 100W is something less than 3 dB, and with Khorns, you're talking about sustained output at 123 dB(SPL) vs. 121dB(SPL). Some suggestions above are good ones to ponder: money is fungible. You could spend that money in a lot of different ways. The real question is "why buy new amplifier(s)?". What's really driving that decision? When thinking about upgrading, I try to take a step back and decide what is the weakest link in the setup in terms of its sound (...not visual appeal). I go after the biggest sore thumb sticking out and balance my expenditures based on the weakest link. Loudspeakers are always the weakest link and cost the most for highest quality, electronics are always the strongest links and should be the least expensive pieces relative to loudspeakers. YMMV. Separating the preamp from the amps allows me to insert active crossovers into the setup without issues, and I can swap out any single piece if there happens to be a failure. Chris Edited October 11, 2014 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 from what I am gathering... and it's probably wrong... OP wants a cleaner signal. I just do not see that happening by exchanging those two choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brac Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 Thanks for some very well though out input, it says alot about this forum/group that you guys are willing to do the research itvolved in helping make good decisions. Sometimes you just wanna try new stuff, I have had the UMC-1 for a good while now and am very happy with it. The prior setup was the A-965 P-965 combo, and I was very happy with the change out of the Newcastle pre to Emotiva so I have thought that I would like a change to Emotiva pre and power. Money has been tight for awhile as one of my jobs (loan closer for various bank) as slowed to the point of almost being non-existent. An Emotiva amp would be over 1k unless I went with the UPA series which seem very light-(don't know much about) where as the receiver is $500 (which happens to be what the A-965 would bring on ebay). It would also give me gear with a warranty which would be great because it is now, if anything goes bad my system would be out of commission. I really just think with the UMC being such an improvement maybe the 8100 would be as well. Power for the sub (home made danley design) comes from a euro power unit so would be unaffected. As Fjd points out the Newcastle is a heck of an amp, which I guess I had forgotten. The P-965 had a few quirks that i did not like, maybe the A-965 is just doing it's job without adding much flavor (which is what we want in an amp). I do have a few other components laying around, 1 is an Outlaw Pre and the other an older Rotel Receiver. Maybe I would be better served, by just doing some testing with things I already own. It's like sometimes you just see some shiny new thing and want to try it out, but I think you guys have showed me it isn't as shiny as first looked. I'm pretty sure the Rotel has inputs which would even let me A/B it's amp with the newcastle......... Maybe it's just time to play around...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 KHorns are crying out for a tube amp.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) You're all wrong about AVRs. Edited October 13, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnr Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Thanks for some very well though out input, it says alot about this forum/group that you guys are willing to do the research itvolved in helping make good decisions. Yes, some very thought out and helpful advice here Fjd and others. Sometimes you just wanna try new stuff, I have had the UMC-1 for a good while now and am very happy with it. If you are happy with your UMC-1, then stay put, have a few 's, sit back and enjoy. I do have a few other components laying around, 1 is an Outlaw Pre I just swapped out an Outlaw 950 pre/pro with a Pioneer Elite SC-63 AVR, because the Outlaw was failing and I had the Pioneer. I'm done with the physical connections, but need to calibrate the system. I am chiming in because I was going to go with the Emo 8100 and use it's processor and still use my Outlaw 770 200 x 7 amp. I stumbled on the Pioneer and am using the pre-outs, like the 8100 has. I don't understand why Emotiva doesn't lower the price of their UMC-200 pre/pro ($599) when you can get the 8100 for $499 and it is basically the UMC-200's brain with 7 amps. This is where they are just pricing separates higher, but with no justification. Edited October 13, 2014 by tnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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