analogman Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Boys, you got that right....Actually, I have made great progress on this, even though I don't currently have a permanent TT installed. I have met some local gentlemen that have a great music shop/performance venue/repair and restoration business. I have spent quite a bit of time in the last few days with them, and have gotten some great advice regarding new, used, restored TT's. They are also interested in some of the equipment I have, so I think we are going to come to a very nice mutual agreement in the near future....Will keep you posted. I wish you had checked DCR from your PHONO plugs to the head shell wires before you returned your table. I think it is/was a very decent table overall but I am a little skeptical when it comes to extraneous features and switches that can be in the way of a pure signal path. Too many chips! Would have helped determine/eliminate any capacitance or attenuation problems due to excessive resistance. You have very good equipment for vinyl play back, especially your Pioneer. Did you try your table with that PHONO stage? If it sounded poorly on that receiver, assuming it is in good shape, then I might have suspected a cartridge/table issue. The PHONO stage on the SX-1250 is discrete and excellent and designed with a wide variety of MM cartridges in mind. I would think your Pioneer to be an excellent reference from which to work; judging and assessing other stages. Pretty good pre-amp as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Perhaps you are missing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization, which is another reason I am not about playing LPs anymore compared what is available in this day and age. But to argue about this is like saying I hate you because you live on the west side and I live on the east side of Manhattan on 9-11, its all about the music and we have that in common. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 You can't violate the laws of physics. All vinyl will have 12 db less bass than CD/DVD's because of the required space between the grooves. I believe someone mentioned this earlier. And if you try to overcome it you will end up with garbage bass. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Jove Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Just thought I'd let you know, I also own your same turntable model. I have it hooked-up to a Yaqin tube preamp, and the vinyl sounds very good through the a Yaqin tube power amp and Chorus 2's. The low end sounds acceptable, to say the least. Perhaps, there is just something amiss with the actual Turntable which cannot be tuned that is causing the problem. Also, I disconnected the built in preamp on the unit itself because it doesn't shut down completely after being turned off. It was causing a slight hum that was bothering me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 You can't violate the laws of physics. All vinyl will have 12 db less bass than CD/DVD's because of the required space between the grooves. I believe someone mentioned this earlier. And if you try to overcome it you will end up with garbage bass. JJK Please elaborate. Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 Just thought I'd let you know, I also own your same turntable model. I have it hooked-up to a Yaqin tube preamp, and the vinyl sounds very good through the a Yaqin tube power amp and Chorus 2's. The low end sounds acceptable, to say the least. Perhaps, there is just something amiss with the actual Turntable which cannot be tuned that is causing the problem. Also, I disconnected the built in preamp on the unit itself because it doesn't shut down completely after being turned off. It was causing a slight hum that was bothering me. Hey Joseph, I think you hit at least part of the issue with that turntable, and that was disconnecting the built in preamp. Many, many folks who own it said that's exactly what they did as well, and it made a big difference, because even when it was switched "off" it was not truly completely out of the circuit. I loved the look of the unit, thought it was well put together, but just didn't want to hassle with the preamp issue. And, I played it across a few different receivers and amps. Now currently pursuing a vintage TT that is being restored. Not big bucks, but nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 27, 2015 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2015 You can't violate the laws of physics. All vinyl will have 12 db less bass than CD/DVD's because of the required space between the grooves. I believe someone mentioned this earlier. And if you try to overcome it you will end up with garbage bass. JJK Please elaborate. Analogman I am interested in this as well. My understanding is that earlier vinyl mastering had tu utilize limiters on the high frequencies so you didn't burn up the cutting head, but eith helium cooled cutters such as Neumann and Westrex. On the low end the only thing that prevents long ultralos passages is space, even with RIAA eq. The Teldec recording of 1812 overture has sections recorded at 8hz, the cannons. All the way up to 35 khz. Having said thay, most mastering engineers mill mix everything below a certain frequency as mono to save space. Sone choose 70 hz at tge point to tie it together. But vinyl is perfectly cabeable of being recorded between 20 hz and 20khz, at least they are with Helium cooled cutting heads. The Neuman SX 74 heads are flat plus/minus 0.5 db form 20 hz to 20 khz dead flat, -3db will get you down to about 7hz and up to 25 or 30 khz 2nd and thrid order harmonics. The lp comes with a disclaimer I thought was ibterestibg when I bought it: "The cannon shots captured on this LP are extremely difficult for most phono cartridges to track. The inability of your phono playback system to play these cannon shots is very typical and not an indication of either your cartridge or record being defective. Acoustic Sounds will not accept returns of this product for reasons of mistracking due to the cannon shots on this record." My kind of warning. You should here the 1812 at about 110 to 110 dbs on Jubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Has anybody mentioned VTA* yet? I waded through many pages of really wild speculation about what the problem with the OP's turntable might be but didn't see any mention of the obvious. You see, most "decent" turntables have a height adjustment at the base of the tonearm pillar. Go here and download/read the manual for the AT-120. On page 4 you will see a diagram of controls and the things they adjust. It appears that item #21 is a control that allows you to adjust the height of the tonearm assembly. What is yours set to? Dial it up and down while a record is playing and listen as the spectral content of the music coming out of your speakers shifts from thin and trebly to thick and bassy. I go away from the Klipsch forums for an entire decade and when I come back I see that nothing has changed. There are still three basic responses to every plea for help with audio gear: 1) you bought the wrong gear, spend more! 2) you set it up wrong, spend more! and 3) who cares about your gear? WORSHIP MY MIGHTY RIG! *"VTA" stands for "Vertical Tracking Angle"** and it's, by far, the quickest, easiest, and cheapest way to get more bass out of a vinyl rig. Thicker, heavier records tend to lower VTA and hence will sound like they have more bass. Thin, cheaply made records sound thin and lifeless. Why? Because your tonearm's VTA actually increases when you play them which usually sucks much of the low-end "oomph" out. **This angle is more accurately referred to as "Stylus Rake Angle" (SRA) but only hardcore vinyl snobs call it that. Edited November 7, 2015 by Krispy Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldred Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) I go away from the Klipsch forums for an entire decade and when I come back I see that nothing has changed. There are still three basic responses to every plea for help with audio gear: 1) you bought the wrong gear, spend more! 2) you set it up wrong, spend more! and 3) who cares about your gear? WORSHIP MY MIGHTY RIG Well welcome back Edited November 7, 2015 by oldred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Moving coil cartridges always seemed to have better, more ample bass, IMO. I had several Ortofons which I loved. The Klipsch moving coil cartridges were excellent, but are no longer made. The RIAA curve is necessary! Old pre-amps would come with a tolerance figure for the degree they adhered to the RIAA curve. Those were the days when audiophiles felt a certain warmth toward RIAA. No more, but you still need the curve. Edited November 7, 2015 by garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The cork mat will also lessen the bass, great for removing static, but not so great on bass. I had one on my table and switched among 3 tables and all 3 had the same thing happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Seriously though. Whatever happened to proper turntable set up? I've scoured this "new & improved" forum high and low and can't find one comprehensive collection of turntable set up tips and wisdom. If I missed it, could someone please post a link here for everyone's benefit? We'd all appreciate it....even if it does skewer a few golden calves. Personally, I've found it can take years to get a set up right. I had to go through three turntables, five cartridges, several mats, multiple phono preamps, and scores of tweaks (including isolation platforms, racks, cables, cleaning methods, brushes, weights, and clamps) before it finally hit me: there is no substitute for correct azimuth, cartridge alignment, optimum tracking force, table leveling, and VTA. Bottom line: if you've neglected proper turntable set up then all this endless hot air about RIAA curves, cork mats, wiring, MC carts, phono preamp circuitry, and wholesale equipment upgrades is, in the immortal words of former Stereophile enfant terrible Corey Greenberg when discussing CD tweaks, "like deciding which pit to spray with Right Guard." Edited November 7, 2015 by Krispy Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) You can't violate the laws of physics. All vinyl will have 12 db less bass than CD/DVD's because of the required space between the grooves. I believe someone mentioned this earlier. And if you try to overcome it you will end up with garbage bass. JJK My understanding is quite different. The RIAA RECORDING curve was engineered to address this, by greatly reducing the bass to use less groove/land space, and by increasing the highs to increase the signal-to-noise (hiss and record playback noise) ratio. The RIAA PLAYBACK curve inverts this with a reverse mirror image curve that increases the bass and reduces the treble, back to "flat". For this reason, it is not true that vinyl has12 db less bass than CDs and DVDs. Twelve db is a LOT, and would be unlistenable. As I understand it, an added twist is that the very bottom octave or so of some RIAA curves was changed to lessen the audibility of TT rumble, which was more of a problem when LP curves were engineered. I don't fully recall the details, but apparently bass from 50 Hz down was reduced in the recording curve to reduce rumble. This reduction has been misinterpreted to mean that the deepest bass is reduced on LPs, whereas that twist is fully reversed by a mirror-image twist in the playback curve. Something like that. In any case, the full story of RIAA curves is very complicated. riaa curve Edited November 7, 2015 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Just as an update, and without comment regarding the perceived lack of "proper setup".....I ultimately purchased a restored, gorgeous, Technics SL 1400 MKII with an Ortofon Blue cartridge, and it is awesome. It is leveled, aligned, calibrated, constipated, and blessed by the Pope when he was in country a month or so ago.....Couldn't be happier. Thank you very much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Ignore the "scare quotes" people...proper set up is only scary to those who choose to ignore it. Congrats JimJimbo and the new vinyl spinner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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