How The World Works

[Jim Naseum]

Ok, I get it. Everyone here claims that "Rock and Roll" is nothing but the end-music and has nothing to do with social values, social mores, lifestyle, drug promotion, or degenerate sex. Got it. Your favorite "rock star" was never in drunken or drug fueled orgies with other men and women. Your rock stars are role models for your grandchildren. None of you would mind your grandchildren going out with 20-something rock stars. Got it. 

 

What was I thinking?

[jason str]

I listened to Rock & Roll once but later that night i became addicted to Heroin and started worshiping the Devil.

[jimjimbo]

Let me be blunt....(pun somewhat intended.....)  perhaps not as eloquently as Mr. Mallette.....

 

I am over 60, barely

I am not an "old geezer" as you so lovingly refer to "us"

"Rock and Roll", "Jazz", "Blues", etc, are stunningly general terms that you seem to use so very casually

I love music.  I don't live my life (or criticize others), via the lyrics in any song

I'm not a low life loser because I enjoyed, (and still do) the music of those that had drug problems, sex problems, alcohol problems.  There are many artists that I enjoy that don't (at least publicly) have those issues.

 

Your "chapters" and arguments are steeped in "we", "us", "the world", "people".....etc, etc, etc.  Perhaps you need to look inward, and speak of YOU.  Please don't assume anything of me.  Thank you.

[Mallette]

Ok, I get it. Everyone here claims that "Rock and Roll" is nothing but the end-music and has nothing to do with social values, social mores, lifestyle, drug promotion, or degenerate sex.

 

Do you know ANYTHING about the formative years of Elvis Presley?

 

Dave

[Mallette]

And...for every case, there is an equal and opposite case.  That said, it, IMHO, proves that lifestyle and art are not utterly entwined. 

 

Dave

[Jim Naseum]

Let me be blunt....(pun somewhat intended.....) perhaps not as eloquently as Mr. Mallette.....

I am over 60, barely

I am not an "old geezer" as you so lovingly refer to "us"

"Rock and Roll", "Jazz", "Blues", etc, are stunningly general terms that you seem to use so very casually

I love music. I don't live my life (or criticize others), via the lyrics in any song

I'm not a low life loser because I enjoyed, (and still do) the music of those that had drug problems, sex problems, alcohol problems. There are many artists that I enjoy that don't (at least publicly) have those issues.

Your "chapters" and arguments are steeped in "we", "us", "the world", "people".....etc, etc, etc. Perhaps you need to look inward, and speak of YOU. Please don't assume anything of me. Thank you.

When generalizations are made, those who insist on seeing them as personal references are expressing what's called "defensiveness." My arguments are steeped in "we" because it is the most common device for referring to large groups, such as citizens of the USA. I am always a part of we. I don't use exclusively ME because my observations include people other than me. Rest assured, it's only your ego that convinces you I am assuming anything for YOU.

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Edited January 20, 2016 by jo56steph74

[Jim Naseum]

Ok, I get it. Everyone here claims that "Rock and Roll" is nothing but the end-music and has nothing to do with social values, social mores, lifestyle, drug promotion, or degenerate sex.

Do you know ANYTHING about the formative years of Elvis Presley?

Dave

Yes.

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[Jim Naseum]

And...for every case, there is an equal and opposite case. That said, it, IMHO, proves that lifestyle and art are not utterly entwined.

Dave

There is something called the "rock and roll ethos." That is what I connect to the art..... Its ethos.

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[Fjd]

Ok, I get it. Everyone here claims that "Rock and Roll" is nothing but the end-music and has nothing to do with social values, social mores, lifestyle, drug promotion, or degenerate sex. Got it. Your favorite "rock star" was never in drunken or drug fueled orgies with other men and women. Your rock stars are role models for your grandchildren. None of you would mind your grandchildren going out with 20-something rock stars. Got it. 

 

What was I thinking?

 

 

 

It seems that Jeff gets it from the post below; however, for this thread......

 

 

Yeah, that's what mom and dad used to say about Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and all those bands that lured their kids into smoking pot and taking other drugs and dropping out of the "rat race" for money and success.

We're in a different era. Now, it's your turn to be "mom and dad." The song remains the same, but it's played through a different beat. There's more violence preached in rap, but alot of violence was spurred from good old rock, too!

Man, I bet the hippies were one scary and ugly bunch to the mom's and dad's who grew up in the '40's and 50's. Just look at Elvis. His leg-shaking really freaked out the moms and dads who grew up in the 40's and 30's. We're a long way from Elvis and his leg-shaking, and this is the natural progression of things.

That said, I don't like the rap culture, either, for the same reasons you stated. But, we'll get past it, just like we did "The Who," "The Grateful Dead" and "Metallica."

You just gotta wonder what the next generation after rap will be like. Notice how each generation seems to have to "one-up" the former in order to be rebellious and "exciting?"

[Jim Naseum]

 

Ok, I get it. Everyone here claims that "Rock and Roll" is nothing but the end-music and has nothing to do with social values, social mores, lifestyle, drug promotion, or degenerate sex. Got it. Your favorite "rock star" was never in drunken or drug fueled orgies with other men and women. Your rock stars are role models for your grandchildren. None of you would mind your grandchildren going out with 20-something rock stars. Got it.

What was I thinking?

It seems that Jeff gets it from the post below; however, for this thread......

Yeah, that's what mom and dad used to say about Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and all those bands that lured their kids into smoking pot and taking other drugs and dropping out of the "rat race" for money and success.

We're in a different era. Now, it's your turn to be "mom and dad." The song remains the same, but it's played through a different beat. There's more violence preached in rap, but alot of violence was spurred from good old rock, too!

Man, I bet the hippies were one scary and ugly bunch to the mom's and dad's who grew up in the '40's and 50's. Just look at Elvis. His leg-shaking really freaked out the moms and dads who grew up in the 40's and 30's. We're a long way from Elvis and his leg-shaking, and this is the natural progression of things.

That said, I don't like the rap culture, either, for the same reasons you stated. But, we'll get past it, just like we did "The Who," "The Grateful Dead" and "Metallica."

You just gotta wonder what the next generation after rap will be like. Notice how each generation seems to have to "one-up" the former in order to be rebellious and "exciting?"

I didn't work on that post because he thought I meant NEW kids music like rap. No. I meant rock and roll from the 60s through 80s, which so many boomers still love, listen to, talk about, and revere.

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Edited January 20, 2016 by jo56steph74

[jimjimbo]

it's only your ego

 

 

My ego?  Oh, that's priceless. 

[Mallette]

Yes.

 

Then you know your premise is flawed.

 

Again, personal observation.  I know several women here in Texarkana who went out with Elvis in his days here.  They were prim and proper then, and are so now.  Were they excited with his energy and gyrations?  Duh...  Prim and proper doesn't mean not human.  But they, to a one, say Elvis was totally honorable, and acted in the most gentlemanly manner of the south.  To a great extent, this is why he is revered here.  Everybody knows what happened later, but he is forgiven for being an innocent Tupelo boy thrust into an adoration he could not really adapt to.  For them, it's the Elvis of 1956 they regard as "the King." 

 

Dave

[Fjd]

 

 

Ok, I get it. Everyone here claims that "Rock and Roll" is nothing but the end-music and has nothing to do with social values, social mores, lifestyle, drug promotion, or degenerate sex. Got it. Your favorite "rock star" was never in drunken or drug fueled orgies with other men and women. Your rock stars are role models for your grandchildren. None of you would mind your grandchildren going out with 20-something rock stars. Got it.

What was I thinking?

It seems that Jeff gets it from the post below; however, for this thread......

Yeah, that's what mom and dad used to say about Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and all those bands that lured their kids into smoking pot and taking other drugs and dropping out of the "rat race" for money and success.

We're in a different era. Now, it's your turn to be "mom and dad." The song remains the same, but it's played through a different beat. There's more violence preached in rap, but alot of violence was spurred from good old rock, too!

Man, I bet the hippies were one scary and ugly bunch to the mom's and dad's who grew up in the '40's and 50's. Just look at Elvis. His leg-shaking really freaked out the moms and dads who grew up in the 40's and 30's. We're a long way from Elvis and his leg-shaking, and this is the natural progression of things.

That said, I don't like the rap culture, either, for the same reasons you stated. But, we'll get past it, just like we did "The Who," "The Grateful Dead" and "Metallica."

You just gotta wonder what the next generation after rap will be like. Notice how each generation seems to have to "one-up" the former in order to be rebellious and "exciting?"

I didn't work on that post because he thought I meant NEW kids music like rap. No. I meant rock and roll from the 60s through 80s, which so many boomers still love, listen to, talk about, and revere.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

I pulled that post because it would appear that the "conflict" is not necessarily recognized in ourselves, but somehow manifests itself by projecting onto the next generation. 

 

In general, I believe that the mind is really strong in protecting our own self-identity and there is a lot of rationalization and dissociation going on in relation to situations that we are not able to directly cope with.  Unconsciously, people have a strong ability to manipulate, deny, or distort the reality of the situation in order to defend against aspects of conflict similar to what you describe. 

 

A more tangible example may be thinking about theft and noting that theft is theft whether the amount is related to office supplies, knives used by meat cutters, $10, or $10,000.  However, there are many people that are able to rationalize why their own petty theft (or larger theft) was fine and justifiable while determining that theft by someone else is not.

[Jim Naseum]

 

Yes.

 

Then you know your premise is flawed.

 

Again, personal observation.  I know several women here in Texarkana who went out with Elvis in his days here.  They were prim and proper then, and are so now.  Were they excited with his energy and gyrations?  Duh...  Prim and proper doesn't mean not human.  But they, to a one, say Elvis was totally honorable, and acted in the most gentlemanly manner of the south.  To a great extent, this is why he is revered here.  Everybody knows what happened later, but he is forgiven for being an innocent Tupelo boy thrust into an adoration he could not really adapt to.  For them, it's the Elvis of 1956 they regard as "the King." 

 

Dave

 

 

How does one anecdote become a flaw in my premise? 

 

I'll review: The premise is that the rock and roll ethos that drives the art form is degenerate sex, illicit drug use, rebellion, anti-Establishment, revolution, bringing down the Man. And further, that a generation of Boomers who are still fans and supporters of that genre of music, don't believe in that ethos any longer. And further, their beliefs are actually counter to that culture, and yet they carry on as if there is no conflict in values. 

 

Now then, just because you trot out some example of a person who doesn't fit the mold (by your account), how would that be a flaw in my premise, which is about the whole of rock and roll  genre, and the whole of the Boomer generation? 

[mungkiman]

“Life is rarely about what happened; it's mostly about what we think happened.” 
― Chuck Klosterman, Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs: A Low Culture Manifesto

[Mallette]

How does one anecdote become a flaw in my premise?

 

Anecdote implies not authoritative.  If you do not find primary source authoritative then you are simply inventing a world that fits your fancy.  Enjoy. 

 

I went so far as to say up front that for every example there is an equal and opposite example.  That's why we don't do religion and politics here. 

 

In the case of my specific example, however, we are talking about "the King."  So, while he by no means invented rock and roll, the entire world recognizes him as the one who brought it to the forefront of popular music.  And he was a boy scout: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent until that was overcome by being placed on a throne he wasn't prepared for.  Hard for a poor kid from Tupelo to function when the only advice he gets is "Yes, your majesty!" 

 

Don't give me this "anecdote" crap.  If you can support your own premise do so.  You haven't done a good job of undermining mine yet. 

 

Dave

[Jim Naseum]

 

 

 

Ok, I get it. Everyone here claims that "Rock and Roll" is nothing but the end-music and has nothing to do with social values, social mores, lifestyle, drug promotion, or degenerate sex. Got it. Your favorite "rock star" was never in drunken or drug fueled orgies with other men and women. Your rock stars are role models for your grandchildren. None of you would mind your grandchildren going out with 20-something rock stars. Got it.

What was I thinking?

It seems that Jeff gets it from the post below; however, for this thread......

Yeah, that's what mom and dad used to say about Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and all those bands that lured their kids into smoking pot and taking other drugs and dropping out of the "rat race" for money and success.

We're in a different era. Now, it's your turn to be "mom and dad." The song remains the same, but it's played through a different beat. There's more violence preached in rap, but alot of violence was spurred from good old rock, too!

Man, I bet the hippies were one scary and ugly bunch to the mom's and dad's who grew up in the '40's and 50's. Just look at Elvis. His leg-shaking really freaked out the moms and dads who grew up in the 40's and 30's. We're a long way from Elvis and his leg-shaking, and this is the natural progression of things.

That said, I don't like the rap culture, either, for the same reasons you stated. But, we'll get past it, just like we did "The Who," "The Grateful Dead" and "Metallica."

You just gotta wonder what the next generation after rap will be like. Notice how each generation seems to have to "one-up" the former in order to be rebellious and "exciting?"

I didn't work on that post because he thought I meant NEW kids music like rap. No. I meant rock and roll from the 60s through 80s, which so many boomers still love, listen to, talk about, and revere.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

I pulled that post because it would appear that the "conflict" is not necessarily recognized in ourselves, but somehow manifests itself by projecting onto the next generation. 

 

In general, I believe that the mind is really strong in protecting our own self-identity and there is a lot of rationalization and dissociation going on in relation to situations that we are not able to directly cope with.  Unconsciously, people have a strong ability to manipulate, deny, or distort the reality of the situation in order to defend against aspects of conflict similar to what you describe. 

 

A more tangible example may be thinking about theft and noting that theft is theft whether the amount is related to office supplies, knives used by meat cutters, $10, or $10,000.  However, there are many people that are able to rationalize why their own petty theft (or larger theft) was fine and justifiable while determining that theft by someone else is not.

 

Yes. I described those attributes (in red) earlier in the thread. I agree. That's what is happening. It's a decision to not think critically about much of anything. This same "defect" in philosophy is applied not just in the example I used of rock and roll, but in many other institutions we deal with in life. No critical analysis. 

 

I know we do it regarding food. And we do it in two other areas I can't mention on the forum. So, it all has a common root, which is accepting illusions and not being interested in critical analysis of our behaviors. 

 

Before writing the post about Rock and Roll, I looked up some of the common degeneracy found in the genre, and it was worse even than I was going to suggest. No, it's not every player, let's not be ridiculous. But it is a wide sweeping ethos in the genre. And just because some of these old goons are pushing 70s doesn't mean they aren't regularly swinging with 14 year old girls and boys  in the hotels after the shows, or at their party mansions. This absolutely seedy underbelly is kept off "Good Morning America" in order to fulfill commercial promotional opportunities.

 

To Oldtimer's point - yes, of course degeneracy occurs in all ages. But, to have the degeneracy and rebellion be a part and parcel of the ethos of the art form itself, is unique to rock and roll. 

[wvu80]

And he was a boy scout: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent

 

Impressive.  Only an Eagle Scout would recite that from memory.  

 

Am I right?  

[BigStewMan]

I'll review: The premise is that the rock and roll ethos that drives the art form is degenerate sex, illicit drug use, rebellion, anti-Establishment, revolution, bringing down the Man. And further, that a generation of Boomers who are still fans and supporters of that genre of music, don't believe in that ethos any longer. And further, their beliefs are actually counter to that culture, and yet they carry on as if there is no conflict in values. 

not every song is an autobiography...some are just stories.  I would like to write more; but, i have a bunch of books that i need to burn. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by BigStewMan

[Mallette]

Am I right?

 

No.  But I wish.  However, my son will be by this time next year at 15.  Great scout.  I did OK, but before I got there I was overcome by fumes.  Car fumes and perfumes.  Tried to fix that with my son by getting him started early. 

 

Dave

Edited January 20, 2016 by Mallette