CECAA850 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Everyone is flawed. Where do you draw the line? Explained clearly and explicitly in the 3rd paragraph above your post. Where do you draw the line? How flawed is too flawed for you? What specifically is acceptable? What specifically is not? Do you research character flaws of a particular artist prior to listening? If you hear something you like and find out that person is below your character threshold, do you not like it any more? If you like it and refuse to continue to enable them, do you feel bad for liking it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Art is art. That means you believe all art is simply equal and interchangeable. I certainly do not believe that, nor does the entire institution of criticism, or art history, or even art appreciation. You would declare Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina" as the same as Judith Krantz' "Princess Daisy" by such reasoning. Similarly, food is food, would allow that bacon is the same as kale. Ha ha...well, thanks for that exposition! Wow. Even I know that's not what Dave believes. Oh? Well then, can you explain what is the meaning of "Art is art?" Not to you, apparently. Well, I've yet to see the attempt. There's only a few posts since Mr. Mallete said it, so where was your attempt? And, why after proclaiming that I hadn't understood him, and everyone else did, there is no explanation? See? That's exactly what I mean by a lack of critical thinking and a lack of ability to converse intelligently. If you had an insight about it, why not express it? If not, why say you did? That's so non-productive. Is it timidity? Lack of confidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 That means you believe all art is simply equal and interchangeable. That statement is too ignorant to comment on. Thanks, Mungkiman. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Everyone is flawed. Where do you draw the line? Explained clearly and explicitly in the 3rd paragraph above your post. Where do you draw the line? How flawed is too flawed for you? What specifically is acceptable? What specifically is not? Do you research character flaws of a particular artist prior to listening? If you hear something you like and find out that person is below your character threshold, do you not like it any more? If you like it and refuse to continue to enable them, do you feel bad for liking it? There are no lines in love, art, psychology, philosophy, politics and the other unmentionable subject here. "Lines" to the extent they exist are a feature of science. When does an artist's beliefs and behavior cross my lines of acceptable? When I get that gnawing disturbing feeling in my gut by trying to understand the artist and their motivations for their art. I would never, ever have the expectation that any kind of artist is without flaws, even deep ones. Sometimes the flaw is incidental to their art, sometimes it is integral to their art, and sometimes it is just more than I can justify giving my support. I might be willing to accept people who are "merely" self destructive, but I would rarely accept someone who aids in the destruction of others as a part of their own flaw. And of course, someone will demand an example. The "rock stars" dragging tweens and early teens into their lair for "g^ng b^ngs" with heroin and cocaine will lie well outside my "line" of what is excusable behavior. I don't care how good his musicianship is. A mere "drunk" may well lie inside the line. I'm just being general. It's by no means foolproof or precise. But, I can do it consciously and avoid in some cases supporting utter degenerates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 That's so non-productive. Exactly what this entire thread really is. Sincerely, One of the flawed "little" peanut gallery folks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Conservatism is gone. Fear of God is gone. Family values are out the window and its all from the freedom of expression, acceptance and conformity that Rock and Roll is all about. What music do you listen to? Are you a fan of any music? A pretty vast variety. No more really, really hard rock and no vile Rap, just too old to get into it now I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 That means you believe all art is simply equal and interchangeable. That statement is too ignorant to comment on. Thanks, Mungkiman. Dave I think I've seen this defense many times before. Say something indefensible, and call the other guy "ignorant" for challenging it, while providing no explanation. On what planet does that work for you? LOL - I know it doesn't work in the workplace. I know it doesn't work with spouses and certainly doesn't work with peers. I can only guess it is your "online forum" defense, because I've seen it many times. Just about time for the lawyers to step in with a bailing can, I'd estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigStewMan Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) You're getting a window into her life like reading a book. Definately part of the equation. Also like visiting with the artist. When you visit, are you having feelings of admiration? Pity? Scorn? What? i have spoken with Brian May multiple times. I admire him having earned a Doctorate in Astrophysics, for achieving a high level of skill on the guitar, creativity writing music, and his self-proclaimed greatest passion animal rights activism. He is also a very decent gentlemam. Brian claims that some songs are just made up stories, some are things that either he or someone he's known has encountered. I've heard him caution others to avoid thinking that every song is autobiographical.It's embarrassing for me to hear a lyric and be disappointed with the artist, until I find out the person in the story wasn't them at all, just something the artist had observed. Go ask Alice Cooper...he said that many of his songs have a biblical theme to them ... I think his words were "there is a God and there is a devil...don't choose the devil." There a some songs that he says he can't sing anymore. Being a writer, I don't want to state things plainly--I want the reader or listener to get the theme; but, I want it to also to be vague enough that others can relate it to their lives. Edited January 20, 2016 by BigStewMan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I think I've seen this defense many times before. If that is the case, then you must make a lot of totally ignorant assessments based on bullshit. I leave it to the others here to judge. I am satisfied with that statement and I'd make it in the workplace, to my wife, or to the Dalai Lama if they pulled a reductio ad absurdum like that in an otherwise intelligent discussion. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Everyone is flawed. Where do you draw the line? Explained clearly and explicitly in the 3rd paragraph above your post. Where do you draw the line? How flawed is too flawed for you? What specifically is acceptable? What specifically is not? Do you research character flaws of a particular artist prior to listening? If you hear something you like and find out that person is below your character threshold, do you not like it any more? If you like it and refuse to continue to enable them, do you feel bad for liking it? There are no lines in love, art, psychology, philosophy, politics and the other unmentionable subject here. "Lines" to the extent they exist are a feature of science. When does an artist's beliefs and behavior cross my lines of acceptable? When I get that gnawing disturbing feeling in my gut by trying to understand the artist and their motivations for their art. I would never, ever have the expectation that any kind of artist is without flaws, even deep ones. Sometimes the flaw is incidental to their art, sometimes it is integral to their art, and sometimes it is just more than I can justify giving my support. I might be willing to accept people who are "merely" self destructive, but I would rarely accept someone who aids in the destruction of others as a part of their own flaw. And of course, someone will demand an example. The "rock stars" dragging tweens and early teens into their lair for "g^ng b^ngs" with heroin and cocaine will lie well outside my "line" of what is excusable behavior. I don't care how good his musicianship is. A mere "drunk" may well lie inside the line. I'm just being general. It's by no means foolproof or precise. But, I can do it consciously and avoid in some cases supporting utter degenerates. So, you have stated that you like Brian Eno. How do you feel about him being an addicted "aficionado" of rather extreme pornography? Or, about his participation in daisy-chain orgies and how he lauds the excretory infatuations in Mexican pornography? Interesting "art dollar" decision on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Brian claims that some songs are just made up stories He would know more than I. I've always (incorrectly it seems) thought that most songs were written from life experiences. Thanks for the correction. Now that I think about it, maybe Puff the Magic Dragon wasn't real......................or was it? Did Brian do most of the songwriting or did Freddie? Seems that most of them were personal in nature. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Conservatism is gone. Fear of God is gone. Family values are out the window and its all from the freedom of expression, acceptance and conformity that Rock and Roll is all about. Whatever it is you look for, you will see. I choose to look for and therefore find the opposite from this in my world. Where is this Utopia? Im looking to leave my door unlocked and my garage door up during the day like I could several years ago. Im looking for University leaders and teachers to look out for our students and instill values instead of twisted perceptions about our country while riling hate groups and terror orgs against us. Im looking for Christmas Trees everywhere during the Holidays and Im looking for prayer on a Baseball or Football field. Im looking for the Pledge of Allegiance before class for each and every student in the USA Im looking for Immigrants to learn English and Pay taxes. Im looking for a lot more of what used to be that made sense, but is now all gone because we "liberally" give and allow of everything, while none are wrong or show accountability. Its not having to say you're sorry, like Rock and Roll or like "Art". . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapsnb01 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 So, "lines" have nothing to do with the premise. The rock and roll ethos I have already described and of course it is a generality. This isn't science, it is art, a branch of philosophy. So no lines are needed, wanted or accepted. What I have seen so far is that no one here ever considered the ethos of art forms and they can't see how it could possibly matter. R&R is apparently the same as C&W, which I suppose is then the same as Baroque, or Jazz or Swing or Opera, and all that matters is the "sound coming into the ear." I accept that as the basic consensus at this "dinner party." That no one can see a contradiction of authoritarians embracing anti-establishment art is not an indictment, it's just a point of interest to me. That's not to suggest that artists are not flawed, because they are some of the most flawed people in society. But there must be an offset to the flaws, that makes a person "admirable" - in which case their art takes on more human value to me. So, in the case of a Winehouse kind of character, I may pity them, have sympathy for their tragic life, but remain unwilling to contribute to the enabling of them. People are incredibly varied and different. Behavior that one person finds distasteful, may be written off by another as someone just being "human" or "young". Taking strictly rock and roll as an example (since it's the one being used), there are a lot of bands/individuals that go through the "sex drugs and rock and roll" lifestyle only to come out the other side with their act cleaned up. I wonder what type of person I would've been if my 17-22 year old self had been surrounded by "yes" men, all the money that I could spend, and access to anything I wanted. I'd hope that the strong values my parents instilled would've prevailed but I'm not naïve as to the pressure and temptation that would've been out there also. For me, I try hard not to judge folks (and maybe that's a cop-out), but I figure if I'm not anywhere near perfect, it's hard to hold someone else to that standard. So, I guess I'm one of those that listens to music because I enjoy it, I feel an emotional connection to it, and I don't need the artist to mimic my beliefs/values at all times. That's not to say that I won't make exceptions and not listen to certain artists due to one reason or another. It also doesn't mean that I don't consider the "ethos" that you're describing, I just weight it differently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Stay out of religion. Hell yes!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigStewMan Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Brian claims that some songs are just made up stories He would know more than I. I've always (incorrectly it seems) thought that most songs were written from life experiences. Thanks for the correction. Now that I think about it, maybe Puff the Magic Dragon wasn't real......................or was it? Did Brian do most of the songwriting or did Freddie? Seems that most of them were personal in nature. they both did a lot of them. Don't forget, a close friend gets divorced, you are walking down that sorrowful road with him ... that is a personal experience too. Not sure Brian did this, but you can insert yourself into someone else's triumph or tragedy -- like I said, they're just stories...some true, some have some truth, some completely made up. Often the writer wants you to be able to connect the song to a part of your life. When that happens, the song resonates with that person for the rest of their life (Brian's words not mine...I just happen to agree). Spoiler alert, this is why some band members fight for one of their songs to be the album's single. Edited January 20, 2016 by BigStewMan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Im looking for the Pledge of Allegiance before class for each and every student in the USA In this regard, I would be very happy if the TV networks would just take the time to show the National Anthem prior to each sporting event, rather than airing a commercial for KFC, or, Viagra...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Hurrian Hymn of 1400 BC Years ago, when my daughter's elementary school class was studying the ancient world she took a recording of the Hurrian Hymn, as well as a chart of 8 stages of cuneiform writing to school. Even though the song, as you know, is pretty short, and a brief sample would have been enough, the teacher declined to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 If that is the case, then you must make a lot of totally ignorant assessments based on bullshit. I leave it to the others here to judge. I am satisfied with that statement and I'd make it in the workplace, to my wife, or to the Dalai Lama if they pulled a reductio ad absurdum like that in an otherwise intelligent discussion. -Dave Oh yeah? Well, I find you in compos mentis!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted January 20, 2016 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2016 If that is the case, then you must make a lot of totally ignorant assessments based on bullshit. I leave it to the others here to judge. I am satisfied with that statement and I'd make it in the workplace, to my wife, or to the Dalai Lama if they pulled a reductio ad absurdum like that in an otherwise intelligent discussion. -Dave Oh yeah? Well, I find you in compos mentis!!! Well now...that could be questionable...at times! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Oh yeah? Well, I find you in compos mentis!!! Suspendere...withdrawn. I am taking that as an honorificum. Dave Edited January 20, 2016 by Mallette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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