La Scala setup wvu80 (Charging capacitors?)

[wvu80]

Pics please! - Mark

 

Hot off the presses, in your honor:

 

[jimjimbo]

Full frontal please....

[jimjimbo]

From what I've seen on epay, I think I'd rather order the oil filled motor runs from Mouser, Newark or Digikey.....Mouser carries the Cornell Dubilier brand, which is excellent.  Not cheap, but excellent.

[wvu80]

Full frontal please....

In your honor, Jim:  

 

 

I don't even know what color these are.  Walnut?

 

I could also use some care and feeding instructions.  I haven't touched the wood because I don't know what to use.  They are a touch dusty inside the doghouse, and a little dusty inside the HF section.

[avguytx]

So as it stands, what do you feel are the comparisons in the CF-4's and the LaScala's?  What did you gain with one and lose with the other? 

Edited March 12, 2016 by avguytx

[wvu80]

I've got the modded CF4's over the stock La Scala by a clear margin.  The CF-4 wins on its ability to play accurately.

 

CF-4 modded:  Really nice midrange, both male and female vocals are really full and realistic sounding.  CF-4's will play loud with little distortion and they are not as critical to placement and setup as the Scalas.  Brass sections especially trumpet is outstanding, snare drum crack is outstanding. 

 

The CF-4 when played at reference are much more accurate with no coloration of sound.  A piano sounds like a piano with the full range, overtones and dynamics of a real piano.

 

 

La Scala stock:  Huge sound stage, but seem more critical to placement and toe-in.  The LS's are not accurate when compared to a live instrument, especially trumpet and tuba.  The LS's are strong and super nice with string bass, vocals aren't really bad but suffer in accuracy next to the CF-4.  Vocals seem a little thin. 

 

Where I really like the LS is the strong mid bass, specifically trombone, baritone, french horn.  I would call that mid-bass punch and the LS has it in this department.  The LS can stand alone without a sub better than the CF-4.  Conversely the CF-4 becomes almost the perfect speaker when paired with a sub to reinforce the bass vis-a-vis the almost overpowering mid-range and smooth top end.

 

 

FYI the stock LS would beat the stock CF-4 due to some high end harshness in the CF-4 and the inaccurate sound which is about 1/3 octave too high to my ears. 

 

The CF-4 mods include EV 1506 compression drivers (drop-in mod), damping the horn with silicon seal,  adding a pound of polyfil to the bottom of the cab and bracing the cab.  The crossover is stock.

Edited March 12, 2016 by wvu80

[Marvel]

I don't even know what color these are. Walnut?

Birch Lacquer with a walnut stain according to the tag. That's what mine were, but mine were '89 with grills.

 

 

Those look really nice and should sound awesome. I had AL crossovers in mine, which I did not like, built and installed some DHA2s.

 

Bruce

[JL Sargent]

Fully horn loaded is always the best sounding type speaker for me. I'm surprised that you don't hear it the same. Each their own as they say. Slowly over the years my two main systems have evolved into fully loaded horns. They seem to always shine the best with VOCALS.

[MookieStl]

Back when I was refurbishing my LSs, I reused an old pair of AB xovers that I had left over from updating my Belles. (I sent you the beat to hell AL's that came in the La Scalas). They sounded fine good enough to me, but I have recently replaced the ABs with a pair of AAs that I had Bob recap. There is a distinct and noticeable improvement. I do not pick up any of the harshness that others have mentioned. I am not very good at "critical" listening, but usually pick up on things I don't like. Yours look great and with a little tweaking should sound great as well.

[wvu80]

Fully horn loaded is always the best sounding type speaker for me. I'm surprised that you don't hear it the same. Each their own as they say. Slowly over the years my two main systems have evolved into fully loaded horns. They seem to always shine the best with VOCALS.

 

Remember I really haven't spent any time with the LS's, it's been less than a week now.  I also think the 37 year-old XO may need some refreshing, and I am driving this with a 125 wpc Onkyo 717 AVR.  The listening mode choices available in the Onk change the sound characteristics a lot.  That includes stereo (which the LS's like, the CF-4's don't), theater dimensional, Pure Audio, Neo6, Dolby, and probably a dozen more. 

 

I did some minor tinkering with the EQ today and the LS was extremely responsive.  Changing the EQ with the CF-4 produced negligible differences which were exaggerated not in a good way at different sound pressure levels.

Edited March 12, 2016 by wvu80

[Marvel]

Yours look great and with a little tweaking should sound great as well.

I will agree with that.

 

You may find, as many have, that the mids need to come down about 3db to sound correct and much smoother.

[jimjimbo]

 

Full frontal please....

In your honor, Jim:  

 

IMG_4609.JPGIMG_4608.JPGIMG_4607.JPGIMG_4611.JPG

 

I don't even know what color these are.  Walnut?

 

I could also use some care and feeding instructions.  I haven't touched the wood because I don't know what to use.  They are a touch dusty inside the doghouse, and a little dusty inside the HF section.

 

Really, really nice!!  Yep, Birch Lacquer, Walnut stain.  Beautiful.  I just use a regular small handled duster that I get at Home Depot or Menards for a buck....

[mike stehr]

I'm actually a little more aware of what the circuit can do than you may realize since I'm the current owner of this set in the picture below; and if Dave is interested and can talk Dean into doing the modifications on another set of crossovers, I have no issue with recommending it.

 

My apologies. There was just a handful of folks that tried this if I recall. I didn't realize you were one of the folks that did.

 

However, the picture of your crossovers only seemed to add another layer of confusion for Dave when I read his response to it; and my point in trying to explain the basics on how capacitors and inductors work in a simple passive crossover was not to place too much emphasis on the battery and potentially add even more confusion for Dave

 

Again I apologize. I kinda blew the think for 10 seconds before posting rule.

 

In reading your posts over the years I suspect that you already are much more aware than most that the lack of a battery-type charge in the capacitors was not the issue with the poor performance of the stock network and that the AC voltage related to the audio signal is sufficient to activate the passive parts in performing the respective functions in the circuit

 

Yeah, and you know I can't argue those points.

 

But OTOH, you mention you don't have an issue recommending the charge coupled networks to Dave if he desires to do such a thing. So I take a guess that you have noticed some perceived difference/differences with the charged coupled networks you have used?

[wvu80]

I had talked with Mustang Guy about XO's several months ago, as he has 6 LS's, three front three back.  I think his are all stock XO's with the caps replaced with the same values.

 

At the time he was considering a steep slope XO, as opposed the shallow slope on the stock AA's.

 

On his website ALK is big on completely ditching the stock XO shallow slope XO in favor of the steep slopes, and he had some other design flaws with regard to impedance swings he thought needed changing.  He had some strange things to say on his website about the Klipsch Forum, concerns that pre-dated my joining here in 2014.

 

I do want to know what forumites think about the various slopes and XO design philosophies, but if I've committed a faux pas by mentioning He Who Shall Not Be Named, please let me know and I'll redact my post.  I don't want to dig up the past due to my ignorance. You can PM me if you want regarding the past personal issues and I'll respect your privacy.  -Dave

Edited March 12, 2016 by wvu80

[MookieStl]

I might get beat up a bit for this, but don't over think it. I have read quite a few of your posts over the past year and feel you appreciate good sounding equipment but don't always buy into all of the little nuances that come along. I would operate under the premise that Klipsch knew what they were doing when they designed these wonderful speakers. Yank out the crossovers, get new caps put in (you know they need it). You will be pleased with the results. While they are getting worked on, slap those old AL xovers I sent you into the LS's temporarily. That will make the refurbished ones sound that much better when you put them back in. Polishing up the connections will also pay off. IMHO

[Matthews]

Yank out the crossovers, get new caps put in (you know they need it). You will be pleased with the results. While they are getting worked on, slap those old AL xovers I sent you into the LS's temporarily. That will make the refurbished ones sound that much better when you put them back in. Polishing up the connections will also pay off

+1  

[CECAA850]

There was just a handful of folks that tried this if I recall.

 

Dean modded and rebuilt a battery set for my Cornscallas.  I can't find a picture anywhere but I know I took one.

[Coytee]

I do want to know what forumites think about the various slopes and XO design philosophies

 

Maybe 8-9 years ago, I was at one of the Hope gatherings.  One thing I got to sit in on was Roy doing some side by sides with various speakers, crossovers, drivers...

 

When we did the normal verses steep slope crossovers, I don't know that I'd have the ear to tell the difference walking in without knowing....but on a side by side, you could easily tell the difference.

 

It was the first time I ever really understood when someone says "it was like a veil was lifted" because that is exactly how I would have described it.

 

The steeper slopes narrowed the band to each driver, lowered the overlap and any commensurate smear that might go with it....and essentially lifted that veil.

 

Seems to me, everything in life has a tradeoff.  I don't really know what the tradeoff for steeper slopes might be other than perhaps cost (??)

 

You help protect each driver....you lift the veil...  I don't know what you give up in sound.

 

Oh, maybe I do have an idea....

 

I'd venture to say that (think two extremes here) if you have an extreme slope, it will take longer for the three drivers to congeal into a singular coherent 'bubble' of sound.  If you use a lower order crossover, the drivers might congeal sooner.

 

Sooner means closer to the speaker, longer means further from the speaker.

 

I'm guessing the main tradeoff is how close you might have to be before the bubble happens.

 

I know with my Khorns (Al's ES networks), they sounded distinctly different (and better) at 30' away than they did closer.  The Jubilee's don't exhibit that same issue....then again, their signal is aligned so their bubble comes together much closer (and being 2-way you lose a crossover point)

 

Those are my non-engineer thoughts.

[Fjd]

 

I'm actually a little more aware of what the circuit can do than you may realize since I'm the current owner of this set in the picture below; and if Dave is interested and can talk Dean into doing the modifications on another set of crossovers, I have no issue with recommending it.

 

My apologies. There was just a handful of folks that tried this if I recall. I didn't realize you were one of the folks that did.

 

 

 

However, the picture of your crossovers only seemed to add another layer of confusion for Dave when I read his response to it; and my point in trying to explain the basics on how capacitors and inductors work in a simple passive crossover was not to place too much emphasis on the battery and potentially add even more confusion for Dave

 

Again I apologize. I kinda blew the think for 10 seconds before posting rule.

 

 

 

In reading your posts over the years I suspect that you already are much more aware than most that the lack of a battery-type charge in the capacitors was not the issue with the poor performance of the stock network and that the AC voltage related to the audio signal is sufficient to activate the passive parts in performing the respective functions in the circuit

 

Yeah, and you know I can't argue those points.

 

But OTOH, you mention you don't have an issue recommending the charge coupled networks to Dave if he desires to do such a thing. So I take a guess that you have noticed some perceived difference/differences with the charged coupled networks you have used?

 

 

 

Actually, you would not have any reason to be aware that I have a pair of crossovers with the batteries; however, you may remember that last year about this time a certain Mr. Smith that was also part of the initial test group was about to receive his B2 Jupiter capacitor upgraded units.

 

I had already been familiar with the JBL work in this area, in addition to having read most everything that had been posted on the topic in the Lansing Heritage forum site.  I didn’t post in any of the threads during the listening trials primarily because I did not have the kind of time I would have needed to give a well-thought-out perspective.  However, I did happen to be in the right place at the right time when that certain Mr. Smith put his batteries up for sale and now they are mine. 

 

In order to help keep my brain from playing tricks on my ears (e.g., similar to how my brain has tricked my taste buds into thinking I now like Diet Coke and Coke Zero), I still haven’t had the appropriate amount of time to properly set up and sit down with my notebook and develop listening criteria in relation to various aspects of tone and timbre, among other musical elements and cues that I’m more familiar with and attempt to document detailed impressions. 

 

Since you had mentioned Sonicaps, my first experience was inserting them in my pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers.  Now here comes the issue why I don’t tend to write too many subjective views; someone may hear “lively and energetic” while the person next to them may hear “etched, mechanical and fatiguing.” Plus layer in the aspect of individual room dynamics and no two listening environments are alike and it makes it very difficult to translate these subjective views into someone else’s specific situation.  

 

Given those qualifications in the preceding paragraph, in general, I tended to fall into the latter camp with the basic Sonicaps and subsequently added Russian K40y-9 oil capacitors in a bypass position with the Sonicaps, which to me seemed to soften the “edge” and, for example, seemed to provide a better simulation of the music where it was fairly easy to determine if a violin that was plucked vs a violin that was played with a bow.

 

I agree that my limited detailed impressions would indicate that the battery bias is a significant step up from the basic Sonicaps and a fairly significant step up from my K40y-9 bypass networks. In trying to put impressions in words, the fatigue-factor appears to be completely gone and overall, it seems to bring the various musical cues that I am familiar with more into focus with a better sense of that organic realism (my lively and energetic) to the music.

 

One last thought. I didn’t take offense on anything you had posted and apologies were not necessary, but thank you.  Although I do understand that there are some people with feelings that are more easily hurt than others, in my experience, regardless of how many posts someone reads of another person or reads of a group of people, it is almost impossible to understand every aspect, nuance and intent of a post.  Much more often than not, I believe that the quote below tends to be a fair analogy of many public forum interactions. 

 

"This is the first verse," he said to Piglet, when he [Pooh] was ready with it. "First verse of what?" "My song?" "What song?" "This one." "Which one?" "Well, if you listen, Piglet, you'll hear it." "How do you know I'm not listening?" Pooh couldn't answer that one, so he began to sing

[mike stehr]

Since you had mentioned Sonicaps, my first experience was inserting them in my pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers. Now here comes the issue why I don’t tend to write too many subjective views; someone may hear “lively and energetic” while the person next to them may hear “etched, mechanical and fatiguing.” Plus layer in the aspect of individual room dynamics and no two listening environments are alike and it makes it very difficult to translate these subjective views into someone else’s specific situation.

 

Also add in different tastes in music genres to add a bit more difficulty.

 

 

 

I agree that my limited detailed impressions would indicate that the battery bias is a significant step up from the basic Sonicaps and a fairly significant step up from my K40y-9 bypass networks. In trying to put impressions in words, the fatigue-factor appears to be completely gone and overall, it seems to bring the various musical cues that I am familiar with more into focus with a better sense of that organic realism (my lively and energetic) to the music.

 

It lines up with my impressions. Less fatigue-factor with a more focused and balanced sound, but still lively and energetic.

I wish I could afford those upscale Jupiter caps to try out, maybe someday.

 

But a DIY guy with a modest budget can modify a Klipsch network for battery bias. It's a bit more expensive than a basic re-cap, (double the caps, resistors, batteries, and holders) but still way lower than using high-end film caps. I think it's a good budget compromise for better sound than a basic re-cap. While it may not have the sound quality of the high zoot film caps, it's good enough to get by while one ponders the higher dollar options...or just get over it...

 

The GF wants me hook up the stereo. I have some fresh batteries to install in the Cornwalls. Let's see if the terminals corrode, it's been about a year and a half at least.

Edited March 12, 2016 by mike stehr