Next Upgrade from La Scala II

[billybob]

As far as music concerns, would also try Free at the same venues or LP,s... many more over at Vinyl Record Spinning... alright.

[Coytee]

On 10/23/2019 at 1:45 PM, JFHSQT said:

I gotta be honest, however it reflects on me here in this forum... The Jubilee and/or JubScala project does seem all a little overwhelming for me, and as I've listened to the La Scala IIs over the past few nights since starting this thread, I have been much more critically listening and really trying to get to the heart of why I want to upgrade. Honestly, they sound amazing, and upon hours of listening there really seems to be only one conclusion - "these sound amazing, but I feel like there's even better I can get to wring out that last 5-8% of what is possible."

 

Longtime cheerleader for the Jubilee here so you can feel free to discount my comments as (highly) biased. 

 

First, regarding being overwhelming.....  I'm here to tell you....  I was (and still am) a plug & play kinda guy.  I had never touched much less used an active crossover.  I went from Khorns to active Jubilee's overnight (even made my own IC's).  If "I" can go active overnight, trust me, you or anyone can.  All you have to have is the correct ingredients in place and then it's simply plug & play.  Once I got mine working, I've not touched the dials since.  (not literally true but functionally true).

 

With the guidance on the forum here, you'd have no troubles getting it working.

 

Want the last 5% huh?  Yeah, the Jubilee might do it for you.

 

I'm in Knoxville (Mike is also near by).  You'd be welcome to have the keys to my system if you wish as long as you don't mind your source being only CD's or DVD/BR's.

 

If you deal with the shipping, I happen to have not only an extra K510/K69 (the small horn), I also have an extra EV-DX38 active that's already programmed for the LaScala/510 combo.

 

I do NOT know if I have RCA-->XLR wires.  You'd need a couple of those (I think I have them but not sure)

 

I could box all that up and let you try it out for a couple weeks.  It's only one driver so you'd have the 510 on one side and your stock LaScala on the other side....  still....  in my opinion, it would only take you about 4,389.003872782 nano-seconds to hear, appreciate and fall in love with the difference in sound but again, I might be biased....  it would actually be 4,485.00143782 nano-seconds.

 

 

[JFHSQT]

On 10/26/2019 at 11:10 PM, Coytee said:

 

If you deal with the shipping, I happen to have not only an extra K510/K69 (the small horn), I also have an extra EV-DX38 active that's already programmed for the LaScala/510 combo.

 

That's a very kind and generous offer... When you say it's an "active" crossover, does this mean I would NOT need extra amps to power everything or that if I went down this road I'd still need to run multiple amps across the system? This ultimately seems to be the dealbreaker for me every time I get feeling brave about it. I've just searched too long to abandon my Luxman valve amp and I can't afford to buy 3 more of them  

 

Kind of related question but I've looked into the Avantgarde Zero TA XD as well - it seems to me like this is kind of the same idea with onboard electronics to handle the DSP and an active subwoofer built into the speaker. Not that I'm comparing that speaker to the shock and awe of the Jubilee, but is this speaker addressing the same timing/phase type issues by having everything built-in to the speaker itself (and ability to use your own stereo amp & sources)?

[Coytee]

On 10/23/2019 at 1:45 PM, JFHSQT said:

That's a very kind and generous offer... When you say it's an "active" crossover, does this mean I would NOT need extra amps to power everything or that if I went down this road I'd still need to run multiple amps across the system? This ultimately seems to be the dealbreaker for me every time I get feeling brave about it. I've just searched too long to abandon my Luxman valve amp and I can't afford to buy 3 more of them  

 

Kind of related question but I've looked into the Avantgarde Zero TA XD as well - it seems to me like this is kind of the same idea with onboard electronics to handle the DSP and an active subwoofer built into the speaker. Not that I'm comparing that speaker to the shock and awe of the Jubilee, but is this speaker addressing the same timing/phase type issues by having everything built-in to the speaker itself (and ability to use your own stereo amp & sources)?

 

 

Well, I guess the answer is "yes".  If you actively biamp the Jubilee you would need four channels of amplification.  You wouldn't need three more of them though...  you could get a lessor amp to power the bass bins and use the Luxman for the K402.  (I presume your Luxman is a stereo amp???  I'm not familiar with it)

 

The main issue if you use a different amp is to get their gain structure matched so one doesn't blow the other out of the water however, that's not impossible either.

 

I don't know anything about the Avantgarde but I'm personally wary of speakers with on board electronics.....  you're stuck with what they give you.  If something blows, you have issues.  In the non-powered world, you could limp by with a different amp if need be.  I might be wrong but that's my take.

[JFHSQT]

53 minutes ago, Coytee said:

 

 

Well, I guess the answer is "yes".  If you actively biamp the Jubilee you would need four channels of amplification.  You wouldn't need three more of them though...  you could get a lessor amp to power the bass bins and use the Luxman for the K402.  (I presume your Luxman is a stereo amp???  I'm not familiar with it)

 

The main issue if you use a different amp is to get their gain structure matched so one doesn't blow the other out of the water however, that's not impossible either.

 

I don't know anything about the Avantgarde but I'm personally wary of speakers with on board electronics.....  you're stuck with what they give you.  If something blows, you have issues.  In the non-powered world, you could limp by with a different amp if need be.  I might be wrong but that's my take.

 

Well now that you put it that way a lightbulb has gone off. For some reason I was thinking I'd use the L/R from one amp to power one side of the speakers (ie top and bass bin of left side) and L/R output from an identical amp to power the other side of the speakers, which is totally idiotic... I'd actually be using the L channel from the Luxman valve amp (20 wpc at 8 ohms which should be plenty) to the left 402, then the R channel to the right 402, THEN a separate amp to power the bass bins in the same way. I have no idea why this didn't occur to me sooner. 

 

So using a different amp like my solid state vintage Luxman M2000 (150 wpc) to power the bass bins would be totally fine then and I'd keep the Luxman MQ88uSE for the tops. I'd use my Backert Labs valve preamp with 2 separate outputs to go from my source to the L/R of the Luxman MQ88uSE (preamp out 1) and to the L/R of the M2000 solid state amp (preamp out 2). And I assume there is a digital crossover somewhere in the mix. That's actually much more do-able than what I thought would require buying another identical amp to power the other "side" of the speakers. 

 

 

 

[Coytee]

4 minutes ago, JFHSQT said:

Well now that you put it that way a lightbulb has gone off. For some reason I was thinking I'd use the L/R from one amp to power one side of the speakers (ie top and bass bin of left side) and L/R output from an identical amp to power the other side of the speakers, which is totally idiotic...

 

Guess I'm an idiot!!  That's how I do it.  I have a single Crown K2 parked on top of each bass bin and one channel powers the bass unit and the other channel powers the K402.

 

I'm doing vertical biamping.

 

If you went horizontal biamping, then you could use your tube amp (two channels of output) to power each (left/right) K402 and you could do the same with your SS amp where each channel powers a bass unit.

 

By doing it that way, you have one solid state amp dedicated to bass output and one amp (tube I understand) dedicated to midrange/treble output.

 

The active crossover....  this is where the fly gets into the ointment for some folks.

 

Your preamp outputs would go to the active crossover inputs.  The active crossover outputs would then be directed to each respective channel.  Two of them would go to the HF amp and the other two would go to the LF amp then the amps are attached to each respective part of the speaker.

 

One issue sometimes seems to be converting to (I presume you have) RCA outputs to XLR then possibly back to RCA.  I was doing this and fiddling around with various configurations to ground....  finally just went with XLR throughput so I didn't have to change things up.

 

There are others who have more elegant solutions than my "everything is a nail and I have a hammer".

[JFHSQT]

3 minutes ago, Coytee said:

 

Guess I'm an idiot!!  That's how I do it.  I have a single Crown K2 parked on top of each bass bin and one channel powers the bass unit and the other channel powers the K402.

 

I'm doing vertical biamping.

 

If you went horizontal biamping, then you could use your tube amp (two channels of output) to power each (left/right) K402 and you could do the same with your SS amp where each channel powers a bass unit.

 

By doing it that way, you have one solid state amp dedicated to bass output and one amp (tube I understand) dedicated to midrange/treble output.

 

The active crossover....  this is where the fly gets into the ointment for some folks.

 

Your preamp outputs would go to the active crossover inputs.  The active crossover outputs would then be directed to each respective channel.  Two of them would go to the HF amp and the other two would go to the LF amp then the amps are attached to each respective part of the speaker.

 

One issue sometimes seems to be converting to (I presume you have) RCA outputs to XLR then possibly back to RCA.  I was doing this and fiddling around with various configurations to ground....  finally just went with XLR throughput so I didn't have to change things up.

 

There are others who have more elegant solutions than my "everything is a nail and I have a hammer".

 

HA! I didn't mean people who did that were idiots, just that in my way of thinking I was an idiot for not realizing I could just use the L/R outputs of the tube amp to power the HF instead of vertical biamping as you say... yes it would make more sense for me to use the existing amps I own in that configuration versus buying another Luxman tube amp to power the other half of the system.

 

I'm going to circle back to this idea after the holidays - hadn't planned on buying anything for the remainder of the year but at least I know a lot more now and the idea of using my own existing amps is definitely do-able. Don't be surprised if I hit you up on a road trip to Knoxville from Salem VA at some point after the first of the year. Thanks again to everyone for all your help and advice. 

[Coytee]

Excellenttttttttttt  I'll make sure to have the wife tell the Home Depot delivery truck when you will arrive.....

 

You good for unloading a truckload of Portland??!!  

[Marvel]

18 minutes ago, Coytee said:

You good for unloading a truckload of Portland??!!  

 

You moving my old town? Jeesh, it's small enough already...

 

 

[glens]

Sounds like someone's fixin' to make a cement pond?

 

The main thing I see wrong with this whole scenario is that there'll be two conversions from digital (for digital sources) with one from analog to digital going in to the crossover.  Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, and a very high quality DAC early on is always a good thing, it just seems a waste.  I wouldn't use an analog crossover except as an interim solution.  The e.q. necessary in this use is better done digitally, IMO, for the same money spent.  It would be better to use a preamp that does ADC first as needed, "passing" digital input signals to the output (manipulating them digitally as necessary) to the crossover. 

 

I'm glad I'm content with my slightly-better-than-mid-fi setup...

[JFHSQT]

6 hours ago, glens said:

The main thing I see wrong with this whole scenario is that there'll be two conversions from digital (for digital sources) with one from analog to digital going in to the crossover.  Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, and a very high quality DAC early on is always a good thing, it just seems a waste.  I wouldn't use an analog crossover except as an interim solution.  The e.q. necessary in this use is better done digitally, IMO, for the same money spent.  It would be better to use a preamp that does ADC first as needed, "passing" digital input signals to the output (manipulating them digitally as necessary) to the crossover. 

 

Well this is the final area of resistance for me actually and why I'd really need to hear this system to see how much of a difference the "speakers" make versus how married I am to the sound and investment of my digital front end. I've been told "you won't hear a difference" but I have to believe there's a trade-off. Between my Chord stack and Innuos server I have more money invested than my preamp and amp combined, and only slightly less than if you added the La Scalas themselves in with the amp & pre. I get many people will say "a DAC is a DAC" but the digital side of my system is contributing a huge amount to the sound - especially when paired with such highly resolving speakers like the LS IIs. So the trade-off is toss all that  aside and end up with an additional A/D/A conversion through a utilitarian DAC in something like the Xilica, then do the Jubes' incredible sound restore/make up for it or at the end of the day is it all a wash. I definitely would need to hear the Jubilees to make that judgement call. 

[pbphoto]

I can understand this.  There are certainly huge benefits to taking your analog signal (from your nice Chord day or even TT), converting it back to digital, and applying DSP, convolution filters, active crossovers etc, before converting it back to analog again before it hits your ears.  Do the benefits outweigh the downsides (cables, amps, cost, complexity...)?  Probably.  But for me, there is something strangely comforting about keeping my 2-channel music all-analog from my DAC (or TT) to my ears.  (I've messed with filters in my streaming software before it gets to my DAC, but that's another thread.). Back to your original question, I would lean towards something from the new heritage series.

[Dave A]

12 hours ago, Coytee said:

Guess I'm an idiot!!  That's how I do it.  I have a single Crown K2 parked on top of each bass bin and one channel powers the bass unit and the other channel powers the K402.

 

I'm doing vertical biamping.

Yup that's what I am too but I see I am keeping good company ;D

[Dave A]

I am a minimalist sort of two channel guy. I had to be dragged kicking and screaming into active crossovers but with a 106" horn length there was no choice. I feed a high def signal from my PC right into a Xilica and then two Crown xli800's and then to my speakers. I am finding using Audacity to fix my music files + the bare minimum of electronic gear yields tremendous benefit and don't go any further.  The trick is to use the least amount of stuff to arrive at a desired quality level in my book. I am beginning to think the desire to further complicate things stems from either not optimizing what you already have right or an attempt to band aide over the deficiencies of a system without identifying exactly what was the weak link causing problems to begin with.

[wstrickland1]

On 10/26/2019 at 9:23 PM, billybob said:

As far as music concerns, would also try Free at the same venues or LP,s... many more over at Vinyl Record Spinning... alright.

Baby-makin' music

[Marvel]

16 hours ago, glens said:

I'm glad I'm content with my slightly-better-than-mid-fi setup...

 

That right there is funny! 😂

[JFHSQT]

Thanks for all the advice and feedback here guys.. it has been a very educational experience!

 

And I can say it has guided me to making the decision on my next speaker upgrade in 2020.

 

After listening to Tom Petty's Mojo this evening it confirms it - the upgrade from my La Scala IIs will be:

The La Scala AL5

 

My LS IIs are just so amazing and everything I want when it comes to dynamics, detail, scale and nuance. Really the only reasonable thing I can think that may be that "5% better" is the AL5, only this time in matte black instead of walnut. Thanks again and I do have to hear some Jubilees. I don't think they're the right speaker for me but I am sure they are amazing. 

[glens]

Best not audition them (Jubilees) is my guess; I've not experienced them myself, but they (including all the requisite ancillaries) would be the next money (if) I spend on auditory indulgence.  Likeliest I'm set for life with Forte IIIs & c.  Even for what I got them for from Cory I feel I'll have some splainin' to do come time to meet my maker...

[RRR]

13 hours ago, JFHSQT said:

Thanks for all the advice and feedback here guys.. it has been a very educational experience!

 

And I can say it has guided me to making the decision on my next speaker upgrade in 2020.

 

After listening to Tom Petty's Mojo this evening it confirms it - the upgrade from my La Scala IIs will be:

The La Scala AL5

 

My LS IIs are just so amazing and everything I want when it comes to dynamics, detail, scale and nuance. Really the only reasonable thing I can think that may be that "5% better" is the AL5, only this time in matte black instead of walnut. Thanks again and I do have to hear some Jubilees. I don't think they're the right speaker for me but I am sure they are amazing. 

 

Go hear them before purchasing would be my recommendation.

[Dave A]

44 minutes ago, jason str said:

Go hear them before purchasing would be my recommendation.

It is hard to compare La Scalas to Jubes

 

46 minutes ago, jason str said:

My LS IIs are just so amazing and everything I want when it comes to dynamics, detail, scale and nuance

When you don't hear one half of the equation. I am betting the Jubes were not pretty enough since what he was looking for is overwhelmingly the domain of the Jubes. He never mentioned a real budget either so that may have been the clincher, who knows.