Do Cornwall 4s need a subwoofer

[YK Thom]

18 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

That was true in the days of the LP and 45 vinyl, but CD's have had a 4 Hz. bottom end with nor mechanical rumbles that were caused by warped discs and tone arms. We have had CD's and even better digital source materials for almost 40 years now. Time to catch up.

Perhaps but I find it unnecessary. There are several current music genres that utilize hyper unrealistic bass - I don't listen to these. So I suppose if one was trying to replicate the PA system of a band or dance hall this might be the way to go. IMO a 100lb speaker with a 15" bass driver should be more than sufficient. The  idea of purchasing such a speaker, and then utilize a portion of it by rolling it off in my mind negates the purpose of  the purchase. One would be better with stand mounts and a massive sub. That way you would actually be using what you purchased. Dave Brubeck didn't vibrate the windows out when he played.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 12/20/2020 at 11:21 AM, YK Thom said:

Perhaps but I find it unnecessary. There are several current music genres that utilize hyper unrealistic bass - I don't listen to these. So I suppose if one was trying to replicate the PA system of a band or dance hall this might be the way to go. IMO a 100lb speaker with a 15" bass driver should be more than sufficient. The  idea of purchasing such a speaker, and then utilize a portion of it by rolling it off in my mind negates the purpose of  the purchase. One would be better with stand mounts and a massive sub. That way you would actually be using what you purchased. Dave Brubeck didn't vibrate the windows out when he played.

I don't disagree with your point about Brubeck. Let's just say that for most music, you are correct. Although I do recall and experience where an uprigh bass was clearly FELT rather than heard live in a small room. That fat 41 Hz string can put out quite a bit of energy from that big resonator and a strong pluck.

However, if you put movies into the mix with 2 channel sound, then having a sub creates a more realistic picture and reduces distortion from the mains, so there is benefit. My own huge Tapped horn subs are idle most of the time on music, but on the rare occasion where they are called upon to put out some bass that is in their band, they do a much better job than a Cornwall flapping in the breeze after the box unloads all it's air. Bass reflex speakers have "edge of the cliff" performance below their cutoff frequency. Yes CornWalls are the least "needy" of a subwoofer, but there are still benefits of lower distortion when subbing them. The quest for lower distortion is the main reason why PWK progressively abandoned their use as a center channel (after the Heresy) and created the Belle to go between the Khorns (and the LaScala for the Birch guys). I just want to remind you that PWK never did anything quickly, or without extensive measurements and listening to symphonies while applying good engineering principles and physics.

 

Bass Reflex is always a compromise that I'm also guilty of in my surround channels and computer speakers (my new RP-600M's), so it depends on whether you want the highest performance possible or can live just fine with the compromises where you user it. No problem here.

[Shakeydeal]

6 hours ago, YK Thom said:

Perhaps but I find it unnecessary. There are several current music genres that utilize hyper unrealistic bass - I don't listen to these. So I suppose if one was trying to replicate the PA system of a band or dance hall this might be the way to go. IMO a 100lb speaker with a 15" bass driver should be more than sufficient. The  idea of purchasing such a speaker, and then utilize a portion of it by rolling it off in my mind negates the purpose of  the purchase. One would be better with stand mounts and a massive sub. That way you would actually be using what you purchased. Dave Brubeck didn't vibrate the windows out when he played.

 

I don't high pass my Cornwalls, the subs are used to fill in below what they can do. The Cornwalls are run full range. You don't even know the subs are there on something like an acoustic bass.

 

Shakey

[OO1]

22 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

the subs are used to fill in below what they can do.

 

Shakey

SHAKEY , what brand-model sub are you using -- tx

[Shakeydeal]

HSU ULS-15 II

[Dave A]

On 12/18/2020 at 11:40 PM, Fido said:

Read something interesting on the Forum today - back in 1951 people listened to music in MONO!!! Stereo was not the big thing in the early 50s - my my - now we have people adding subwoofers to their systems that are as big as a semi truck! and... people act as if Fortes are like micro mini desktop monitors.

I can't comment much on big as I went that route. Stereo records were not available until 1956 or 7 and I downloaded a copy of steam engines that was one of the first stereo records available recently. What I would like would be like a laser holograph only with sound and I could focus it around me and sit right in the middle of the action.  The box it would transmit from would be no larger than 12" x 12" x 12"  and  then WAF would never be a problem again for anyone. Which leads me to this rhetorical question. Why is WAF more important then MAF?

 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

10 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Why is WAF more important than MAF?

I know, right? 

[Fido]

1 minute ago, Dave A said:

I can't comment much on big as I went that route. Stereo records were not available until 1956 or 7 and I downloaded a copy of steam engines that was one of the first stereo records available recently. What I would like would be like a laser holograph only with sound and I could focus it around me and sit right in the middle of the action.  The box it would transmit from would be no larger than 12" x 12" x 12"  and  then WAF would never be a problem again for anyone. Which leads me to this rhetorical question. Why is WAF more important then MAF?

 

Dave - I think that most women are not testosterone driven. Not that there are none that are but most women I have met are not. Our pal Claude is obsessed with lots of pumping loud Bass. So much so that he wants to build two more subs after having the new big as a small bedroom one in the basement and his Danley Spuds in his upstairs mix. My mom explained to me before my 2nd marriage that women want to nest so thats more important to them than to most men. She told me to let my wife NEST and setup the house so she likes it -- and then have her support me getting my motorcycles and high powered sports cars etc - 22 years of marriage and thats worked well for me. If there was the room for bigger speakers she would support me getting those but not if they block access to the kitchen from the living room. In the meantime I will have to suffer listening to those teeny tiny Fortes and 15 inch HSU Subwoofer. BTW - That sub pumps out a lot of clean BASS in that small room.

[Dave A]

24 minutes ago, Fido said:

Dave - I think that most women are not testosterone driven. Not that there are none that are but most women I have met are not. Our pal Claude is obsessed with lots of pumping loud Bass. So much so that he wants to build two more subs after having the new big as a small bedroom one in the basement and his Danley Spuds in his upstairs mix. My mom explained to me before my 2nd marriage that women want to nest so thats more important to them than to most men. She told me to let my wife NEST and setup the house so she likes it -- and then have her support me getting my motorcycles and high powered sports cars etc - 22 years of marriage and thats worked well for me. If there was the room for bigger speakers she would support me getting those but not if they block access to the kitchen from the living room. In the meantime I will have to suffer listening to those teeny tiny Fortes and 15 inch HSU Subwoofer. BTW - That sub pumps out a lot of clean BASS in that small room.

So Claude has a testosterone problem? I wondered why there was never enough bass devices in his ever shrinking living space. WAF and MAF can live under one roof just fine as long as they don't get out of whack.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

1 hour ago, Fido said:

If there was the room for bigger speakers she would support me getting those but not if they block access to the kitchen from the living room.

SMH

Why do you stay?? 😁

 

1 hour ago, Fido said:

and then have her support me getting my motorcycles and high powered sports cars etc -

Yeah, but what about trains and boats, and air planes and building shelves to store more motorcycle stuff and more speaker stuff and .....?

 

1 hour ago, Fido said:

22 years of marriage and that's worked well for me.

👍

 

I can't say that. 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

46 minutes ago, Dave A said:

WAF and MAF can live under one roof just fine

 

Just call me Dual Bag

[Fido]

57 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

 

Just call me Dual Bag

Classic - you klipsch fanatics crack me up lol

[richieb]

This is the third marriage for me and my wife. She was quick to realize that finally, she has struck gold. I buy anything I want, maybe a raise of an eyebrow on occasion. Moral of the story - there is none. 

[YK Thom]

On 12/20/2020 at 4:03 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

I don't disagree with your point about Brubeck. Let's just say that for most music, you are correct. Although I do recall and experience where an uprigh bass was clearly FELT rather than heard live in a small room. That fat 41 Hz string can put out quite a bit of energy from that big resonator and a strong pluck.

However, if you put movies into the mix with 2 channel sound, then having a sub creates a more realistic picture and reduces distortion from the mains, so there is benefit. My own huge Tapped horn subs are idle most of the time on music, but on the rare occasion where they are called upon to put out some bass that is in their band, they do a much better job than a Cornwall flapping in the breeze after the box unloads all it's air. Bass reflex speakers have "edge of the cliff" performance below their cutoff frequency. Yes CornWalls are the least "needy" of a subwoofer, but there are still benefits of lower distortion when subbing them. The quest for lower distortion is the main reason why PWK progressively abandoned their use as a center channel (after the Heresy) and created the Belle to go between the Khorns (and the LaScala for the Birch guys). I just want to remind you that PWK never did anything quickly, or without extensive measurements and listening to symphonies while applying good engineering principles and physics.

 

Bass Reflex is always a compromise that I'm also guilty of in my surround channels and computer speakers (my new RP-600M's), so it depends on whether you want the highest performance possible or can live just fine with the compromises where you user it. No problem here.

I stand by my original point to the OP, Fido,  Cornwall IVs do not need a sub woofer. You will be very happy with a pair in your listening room as is. If you decide to take up weird digital dance music or feel you are missing 1/100 of a degree of a movie score or just want want to feel feel vibrations instead of music buy some subs. And then spend half as much again on on bass traps trying to clean up the mess. All about a tight music presentation or whomp whomp like some kid's car stereo.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 12/20/2020 at 7:30 PM, Fido said:

In the meantime I will have to suffer listening to those teeny tiny Fortes and 15 inch HSU Subwoofer. BTW - That sub pumps out a lot of clean BASS in that small room.

Good enough. My ex was fine with my audio stuff. She even co-signed for my Khorn loan. So WAF was never a problem for my Klipsches. Which home we lived in (5 total in 35 years) was the chief determinant. That being said, I do think your wife is a very reasonable woman, and her support of view requires a very minor compromise in the big picture of life.

 

As for the subs, in my situation,  it's not about how loud they play, it's how smooth the lowest bass can be in different room positions and how LOW the Distortion is. The lowest distortion comes LONG Horns down low. When they are Bigger AND Longer, you get more output with the lowest distortion possible, keeping in mind that 99% of modern Blue Ray movies mastered in Atmos (even those at IMAX Theaters) do NOT have content below 20 Hz. (even though it happens maybe with 1% of the Action Movies). But it turns out the Longest and Least Efficient Tapped Horn (14 Hz) I have designed and cut a flat pack for is also the smallest of the 4 horns I have.........tapped or full. So it will get the biggest power amp to compensate. But yes, I like to build for performance, like you have a powerful engine in your Corvette. But my low bass engines are way cheaper than your Corvette. Some people can afford a $50 bottle of Cabernet while others are stuck with 2 Buck Chuck. Having a choice in America is great, isn't it?

[Fido]

11 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Good enough. My ex was fine with my audio stuff. She even co-signed for my Khorn loan. So WAF was never a problem for my Klipsches. Which home we lived in (5 total in 35 years) was the chief determinant. That being said, I do think your wife is a very reasonable woman, and her support of view requires a very minor compromise in the big picture of life.

 

As for the subs, in my situation,  it's not about how loud they play, it's how smooth the lowest bass can be in different room positions and how LOW the Distortion is. The lowest distortion comes LONG Horns down low. When they are Bigger AND Longer, you get more output with the lowest distortion possible, keeping in mind that 99% of modern Blue Ray movies mastered in Atmos (even those at IMAX Theaters) do NOT have content below 20 Hz. (even though it happens maybe with 1% of the Action Movies). But it turns out the Longest and Least Efficient Tapped Horn (14 Hz) I have designed and cut a flat pack for is also the smallest of the 4 horns I have.........tapped or full. So it will get the biggest power amp to compensate. But yes, I like to build for performance, like you have a powerful engine in your Corvette. But my low bass engines are way cheaper than your Corvette. Some people can afford a $50 bottle of Cabernet while others are stuck with 2 Buck Chuck. Having a choice in America is great, isn't it?

Having choices is great

[ClaudeJ1]

2 hours ago, Fido said:

Having choices is great

.

Great choice!

[VDS]

On 12/17/2020 at 7:45 AM, Shakeydeal said:

Well in my opinion, for that to work with the Cornwalls, the sub would have to be no more than 1-2" high.

 

With the risers, they are the perfect height for my listening position. If you had a higher chair than mine, you might be able to raise them a few inches more. Putting them on top of a subwoofer enclosure would totally skew the tonal balance of the speaker.

 

Hey, it's not like we are talking about a bass shy speaker in the first place. In a non home theater setting, most would be more than happy with the bass output.

 

Shakey

I have (modified) Cornwall’s 6” off the floor on raised platforms, I much prefer them at this height.  Otherwise my mid driver is approximately 28” off the floor, which seems pretty low.  I have them in corners, can’t hear any loss of bass on the platforms.  
As far as bass goes I’m on the fence about adding subs.  I’d like to get to 30 hz, and people always says it does more than just lowering bass....certainly not a “bass shy” speaker as @Shakeydeal said.

[billybob]

When looking at 2 15 inch woofers, the last thing I would even think about or consider is a sub.

[VDS]

One thing I was wondering. Since Cornwalls are bass reflex lower end, would a horn woofer still be significantly better than “standard” sub, (Rel, Rythmik are on my list). Having horn subs 20-60hz, then bass reflex 50-450hz, then horns above that.  Would the bass seem “disjointed, less cohesive”. Am I overthinking this?