A Visit with Chief Bonehead and The Jubilee

[Islander]

36 minutes ago, KT88 said:

Well just read some reviews, the latest Node 2021 has a different DAC chip which make a significant improvement. 20 years ago I spent four digits for a CD player. Today only the remaining value of analogue equipment counts for me (and the market). Digital equipment ist 98% good for 500€ against 99% for 5000€. Ok, the analogue parts in the circuits and the PSU may be better with expensive gear but even that is far closer than 10 years ago.

 

That story reminded me of what I heard around 1999 or so from a friend.  He said he had a $3,000 Meridian CD player he was very happy with.  Then he bought one of the first Oppo players, the $179 model, for the home theatre room.  Out of curiosity, he connected it to his good system and played a few CDs through both sources.  He was amazed to find that he couldn't tell the difference between them.

 

When I asked him how he reacted when he realized that the Oppo was the equal of the Meridian, he told me that he didn't know whether to laugh or cry.  He bought more Oppo gear later, even after the prices went up, but I don't know what he did with the Meridian CD player.

[KT88]

17 minutes ago, Islander said:

 

That story reminded me of what I heard around 1999 or so from a friend.  He said he had a $3,000 Meridian CD player he was very happy with.  Then he bought one of the first Oppo players, the $179 model, for the home theatre room.  Out of curiosity, he connected it to his good system and played a few CDs through both sources.  He was amazed to find that he couldn't tell the difference between them.

 

When I asked him how he reacted when he realized that the Oppo was the equal of the Meridian, he told me that he didn't know whether to laugh or cry.  He bought more Oppo gear later, even after the prices went up, but I don't know what he did with the Meridian CD player.

Pat, that is a very funny and true story you tell. My last expensive digital gear was a Meridian G08 24 Bit player 20 years ago which still works well in my system but it is almost not used since I stream using my Node and its predecessors since almost 6 years. I bought the Node last year after a Node 2i and that after a Sonos. All bought new for less than 500€ and sold for more than 350€.

[Travis In Austin]

Roy updates here:

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:40 AM, DrWho said:

Unfortunately I don't think I'll make it out to Hope that week, but maybe there'll be another opportunity in the future?

Yes, you know it, can't wait for you to hear it.

 

 

On 2/3/2022 at 12:40 AM, DrWho said:

Did I read correctly that the new Jubilee is $16k each? Not $16k for the pair?

https://hifiheaven.net/shop/Klipsch-Jubilee-Flagship-2-Way-Fully-Horn-Loaded-Loudspeaker-American-Walnut-EACH?language=en&currency=USD

Ooof...

 

No, it's 18K each on that website, which is pretty much what they have been saying the price would be for the regular edition in Black Ash or Walnut. 

 

If you want the 75th Anniversary Edition in Teak/Lambswool then I believe it's another 5 or 7K on top of that (42K?), limited to only 75 pairs, and then there is going to be one, and only one pair, of the "Diamond Jubilee" and the pricing hasn't been set on that yet. 

[KT88]

3 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Yes, you know it, can't wait for you to hear it.

 

 

No, it's 18K each on that website, which is pretty much what they have been saying the price would be for the regular edition in Black Ash or Walnut. 

 

If you want the 75th Anniversary Edition in Teak/Lambswool then I believe it's another 5 or 7K on top of that (42K?), limited to only 75 pairs, and then there is going to be one, and only one pair, of the "Diamond Jubilee" and the pricing hasn't been set on that yet. 

42K for the AE version when they go this year on sale, 48K next year considering the world wide inflation?

[Islander]

On 2/3/2022 at 2:04 PM, KT88 said:

Pat, that is a very funny and true story you tell. My last expensive digital gear was a Meridian G08 24 Bit player 20 years ago which still works well in my system but it is almost not used since I stream using my Node and its predecessors since almost 6 years. I bought the Node last year after a Node 2i and that after a Sonos. All bought new for less than 500€ and sold for more than 350€.

 

A couple of months ago, I got a SONOS One for the bathroom.  It’s compact and moisture resistant, plus the sound is surprisingly good.  It’s amazing what powerful amplifiers (it’s bi-amped) and lots of DSP can do.

 

I haven’t been able to find out how much power the speaker actually has, but in a tear-down video on YouTube, I saw that the magnet on the woofer was as large in diameter as the woofer itself (~4-4-1/2 inches), if not a little more.

 

While SONOS doesn’t publish the power ratings of their powered speakers, they do post the maximum volume you can expect (85-90 watts for the One) from their individual speakers.  That way, you can pick the right speaker for the volume level you need.

[DrWho]

You guys think Klipsch will ever come out with a "raw birch" option like they've done in the past with heritage products? Or maybe even ship a flat pack DIY version?

 

This hobby is brutal....I think I finally save up enough pennies and then the prices basically quadruple (it was like $8k'ish for a pair for the underground, right?)

 

Is it still possible to get an underground version?

 

The way my mind works, i can get a CNC router for the same price that would let me build as many speakers as I wanted... And with the "Ikea effect" cognitive bias, I'd think it sounded better even if it wasn't

 

[DrWho]

On 2/3/2022 at 5:39 AM, KT88 said:

Your reasoning regarding the weakness of Tidal in play lists and pop content, visual presentation and menu navigation you could have copied 1:1 from my daughter Elisa, as well her example re at a party.
For me as an old white man, the offer and the presentation is completely sufficient, I find my jazz records faster than 30 years earlier in the record store with six large rooms and incorrectly sorted records.🙃

Haha, too funny. I've never had the experience of digging through records. 

 

I guess I'm still too young to be considered part of the target market for audiophile gear? I'm shocked that the audiophile market still hasn't picked up a high fidelity version of Sonos/Spotify.

 

For example, Klipsch spent all that money to make a custom digital box for the Jubilee and they didn't throw in a web-enabled chip to stream music directly from it. 

 

But I guess it makes sense for the older cats that come from the different experience you describe. I know there's been a surge in the vinyl market lately with the younger generations....I think the psychological root behind it is that music lovers want something that feels artisanal. And I think there's something to the vinyl ritual that sets the emotional context for the listening session. However, the friction points in Tidal don't feel artisanal, so I think there's still opportunity in the high fidelity market for a digital based system.

 

I'm having a similar emotional reaction to the new Jubilee. There marketing feels too much like other corporate sponsored products versus the artisanal experience that the underground Jubilee had. I bet the marketing team probably feels like they're pitching the artisanal vibe, but it still comes off corporate to me. 

[babadono]

2 hours ago, DrWho said:

Is it still possible to get an underground version?

Yea I don't think so. Maybe the full cinema 3 way can be had? Call Cory.

A DIY flat pack from Klipsch? Too much room for errors to be made by DIYers in assembly then no end to the complaints. So I say it will never happen IME.

My undergrounds are raw birch but really how much would/could be saved? I mean how much more $ is walnut veneered material as opposed to raw birch? Maybe, maybe maybe $5k at the most?

I begged Klipsch to make mine with cherry veneered stock, even asked the plant manager Jerry why it can't be done. All the answer I got was we're not going to talk about this. I apologized and tried to make him understand I was just trying to gain an understanding of why it can't be done. Well apparently it can be and I'm sure he is working out all the details to make it happen.

[KT88]

2 hours ago, DrWho said:

Haha, too funny. I've never had the experience of digging through records. 

 

I guess I'm still too young to be considered part of the target market for audiophile gear? I'm shocked that the audiophile market still hasn't picked up a high fidelity version of Sonos/Spotify.

 

For example, Klipsch spent all that money to make a custom digital box for the Jubilee and they didn't throw in a web-enabled chip to stream music directly from it. 

 

But I guess it makes sense for the older cats that come from the different experience you describe. I know there's been a surge in the vinyl market lately with the younger generations....I think the psychological root behind it is that music lovers want something that feels artisanal. And I think there's something to the vinyl ritual that sets the emotional context for the listening session. However, the friction points in Tidal don't feel artisanal, so I think there's still opportunity in the high fidelity market for a digital based system.

 

I'm having a similar emotional reaction to the new Jubilee. There marketing feels too much like other corporate sponsored products versus the artisanal experience that the underground Jubilee had. I bet the marketing team probably feels like they're pitching the artisanal vibe, but it still comes off corporate to me. 

Well, there are high-quality streamers, e.g. here.
https://eng.hifirose.com/rs150

I agree that vinyl can be associated with beautiful rituals, buying, touching, collecting, ritual of putting on, etc.
Similar to a high quality analog wristwatch, one develops emotional feelings towards a good record player.

As for the new Jubilee, it is a finished product. This is different from when we users were part of a development process for the underground Jubilees.
My 2 cents, I would offer the new Heritage Jubilee in the way Morgan does with their cars. You buy a manufature based high quality product. Klipsch could also offer some kind of bespoked version from the "customshop", e.g. the funier in coordination with the furniture someone has at home.

[Oicu812]

I have an idea that I wanted to pass on for the new Jubes.  I was looking at the pictures where Roy took off the magnetic grilles, and they were stood leaning against a wall.  That's what gave me a thought...

 

Why not put pairs of magnets on each of the back sides, where you could hang your grilles safely out of sight (and danger) when not in use?  I'm sure the owners would appreciate that detail.

 

@Chief bonehead

[Dave1291]

Nice touch if it would work.  

[David Evans]

14 hours ago, Oicu812 said:

I have an idea that I wanted to pass on for the new Jubes.  I was looking at the pictures where Roy took off the magnetic grilles, and they were stood leaning against a wall.  That's what gave me a thought...

 

Why not put pairs of magnets on each of the back sides, where you could hang your grilles safely out of sight (and danger) when not in use?  I'm sure the owners would appreciate that detail.

 

@Chief bonehead

 

I like that idea. 

[Islander]

18 hours ago, Oicu812 said:

I have an idea that I wanted to pass on for the new Jubes.  I was looking at the pictures where Roy took off the magnetic grilles, and they were stood leaning against a wall.  That's what gave me a thought...

 

Why not put pairs of magnets on each of the back sides, where you could hang your grilles safely out of sight (and danger) when not in use?  I'm sure the owners would appreciate that detail.

 

@Chief bonehead

 

That's a good idea, but it would be cheaper and easier to go to a hardware store, buy the magnets, and install them yourself.  The reason inexpensive-sounding ideas like this turn out to cost more than you'd think has to do with the price multiplying that happens as the speaker moves from hand to hand.

 

It goes like this:  manufacturer cost -->distributor price (incl. markup) -->dealer price (incl. markup) --> MSRP

 

This is why Chevrolet stalled the replacement of faulty ignition switches a decade or so ago, and Lincoln continued to build Town Cars that had the fuel tank located extra close to pointy parts of the rear suspension, so that a rear-end collision could easily cause the fuel tank to be punctured, with a strong possibility that the leaking gasoline could spill onto the hot exhaust pipe(s), with disastrous results.  When an ex-gf of mine bought a Town Car, I learned about this and contacted someone at Lincoln, who told me that a shield kit that would protect the fuel tank was available, and it cost only $75 or so, plus installation.  Why wasn't the kit installed every car on the production line?  He had no answer for me.  

 

The increase in the retail price of the speakers would be hard to justify, since this simple but handy feature would probably be used by a minority of buyers, and not that often by that minority.  Accordingly, it would be simpler to do it yourself.  Of course, I'm seeing it from the outside, and I might be far off the mark.  Roy may see this suggestion, and if he thinks it would be worth doing, he'll make it happen.

[The Dude]

On 2/10/2022 at 10:45 AM, babadono said:

A DIY flat pack from Klipsch? Too much room for errors to be made by DIYers in assembly then no end to the complaints.

I thought the same thing, but then Danley Sound labs did...wonder how that turned out?

[babadono]

Most important word "did"

 

[DrWho]

Scratch that....

After hearing the Jubilee at Axpona, I'm no longer interested in the underground version.

 

Ya know, it's kinda funny.....

 

After hearing the underground Jub, I was totally enamored with the K402 and wanted something a bit nicer on the LF side.

 

Then comes the official Jubilee, I've fallen in love with the bass bin and now want a better top end

 

 

 

I think at the end of the day, I might prefer the sound of a 3-way over a 2-way speaker. I was super impressed with the improved refinement of the Jubilee. The 2-way felt super integrated, like it was one speaker - even at short distances. Probably because the HF was covering such a huge bandwidth. It's certainly an elegant solution for sure.

 

But several years ago (back when I was touring with a band), we came across a PA with some horn loaded 10" drivers...similar to the Klipsch Cinema bin that I think uses an 8" driver on the K402? K402MB I think? Anyways, I'll never forget how good I could get the snare drum to sound with that speaker. It's an illusive sound that I have heard on occasion from other systems, but it's the only thing I felt was lacking from the official Jubilee.

 

I've also thought a lot about Mark's preference for his system where I think he might be running 5 way or something? My goodness I feel so outta the Klipsch community loop. Anyways, it's been in the back of my mind for years how the bandwidth of the driver determines the starting point for that system's IMD performance (due to the doppler effect). The more you divide up the bandwidth, the lower that distortion.....and it seems to me that IMD is heavily related to the sensation of dynamics / impact - especially for percussive sounds since they have such a wide frequency bandwidth to them. The downside to a multi-way system is that you need to combine the wavefronts together....so you're pretty much forced with a tradeoff between point source realism and imaging versus dynamics and impact.

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm curious to get the thoughts of others that got to hear the Jubilee down in Hope. Do you guys hear a similar thing? I'm not totally convinced it's IMD related because the highs didn't flutter around like I would normally expect, but maybe there's something special happening in that driver? I haven't had a chance to read up on its construction. My only other thought was that it might be suspension related...I've heard a similar sound with another driver in the past that was definitely caused by the suspension - and it had a similar effect on the sound.

 

Anyways, just thinking out loud to see what others thought. I'm actually not sure I would prefer a 3-way design either....every system is riddled with its tradeoffs / compromise. I guess I'm just curious if this is the limit of a full bandwidth 2-way design, or if maybe there's a little more meat left on the table for Roy to pursue in version 2? Or would that be version 3 if it were a 3 way?  Ya ya, I know PWK wanted a 2-way and this is a beautiful homage to that vision. Not trying to criticize the design.....just trying to understand it and what I think my preferences might be. Part of that is wanting to understand how the rest of y'all felt too.

[MMurg]

1 hour ago, DrWho said:

Anyways, I'm curious to get the thoughts of others that got to hear the Jubilee down in Hope.

 

I haven't had a chance to read up on its construction.

 

I don't remember experiencing what you described but I wasn't specifically listening for that either.  I really couldn't find fault with anything I heard.  However, when I was rushing through my planned playlist in the 20 - 30 minutes of time we each got for our own music, I might have missed some things.  Also, I'm not a musician so I likely don't have the same knowledge of what snare drums are supposed to sound like.  If you have any suggestions for recordings I could try when I get my pair, I'd be happy to give them a listen and see if I can hear what you are describing.

 

If you want info on the Celestion AXI2050, there are two YouTube videos of a seminar by one of the engineers about its development.  No idea why the first two minutes or so are in the first video and the rest of it is in the second.

 

PART 1: Wideband Compression Driver Design - Dr Jack Oclee-Brown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP2QBYzC2hY

 

PART 2: Wideband Compression Driver Design - Dr Jack Oclee-Brown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0Q9JOO_Xh4
 

[Travis In Austin]

On 5/19/2022 at 6:55 PM, DrWho said:

Scratch that....

After hearing the Jubilee at Axpona, I'm no longer interested in the underground version.

 

Ya know, it's kinda funny.....

 

After hearing the underground Jub, I was totally enamored with the K402 and wanted something a bit nicer on the LF side.

 

Then comes the official Jubilee, I've fallen in love with the bass bin and now want a better top end

 

 

 

I think at the end of the day, I might prefer the sound of a 3-way over a 2-way speaker. I was super impressed with the improved refinement of the Jubilee. The 2-way felt super integrated, like it was one speaker - even at short distances. Probably because the HF was covering such a huge bandwidth. It's certainly an elegant solution for sure.

 

But several years ago (back when I was touring with a band), we came across a PA with some horn loaded 10" drivers...similar to the Klipsch Cinema bin that I think uses an 8" driver on the K402? K402MB I think? Anyways, I'll never forget how good I could get the snare drum to sound with that speaker. It's an illusive sound that I have heard on occasion from other systems, but it's the only thing I felt was lacking from the official Jubilee.

 

I've also thought a lot about Mark's preference for his system where I think he might be running 5 way or something? My goodness I feel so outta the Klipsch community loop. Anyways, it's been in the back of my mind for years how the bandwidth of the driver determines the starting point for that system's IMD performance (due to the doppler effect). The more you divide up the bandwidth, the lower that distortion.....and it seems to me that IMD is heavily related to the sensation of dynamics / impact - especially for percussive sounds since they have such a wide frequency bandwidth to them. The downside to a multi-way system is that you need to combine the wavefronts together....so you're pretty much forced with a tradeoff between point source realism and imaging versus dynamics and impact.

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm curious to get the thoughts of others that got to hear the Jubilee down in Hope. Do you guys hear a similar thing? I'm not totally convinced it's IMD related because the highs didn't flutter around like I would normally expect, but maybe there's something special happening in that driver? I haven't had a chance to read up on its construction. My only other thought was that it might be suspension related...I've heard a similar sound with another driver in the past that was definitely caused by the suspension - and it had a similar effect on the sound.

 

Anyways, just thinking out loud to see what others thought. I'm actually not sure I would prefer a 3-way design either....every system is riddled with its tradeoffs / compromise. I guess I'm just curious if this is the limit of a full bandwidth 2-way design, or if maybe there's a little more meat left on the table for Roy to pursue in version 2? Or would that be version 3 if it were a 3 way?  Ya ya, I know PWK wanted a 2-way and this is a beautiful homage to that vision. Not trying to criticize the design.....just trying to understand it and what I think my preferences might be. Part of that is wanting to understand how the rest of y'all felt too.

I knew you were going to say that, "not interested in the Underground Jubilee after hearing the Jubilee in Chicago."

 

Others will have to comment about why the top end is sounding the way it was. Mike B. has a lot of thoughts on it.

 

Did you get to say hi to Roy?

 

 

 

Travis

[Travis In Austin]

On 5/19/2022 at 6:55 PM, DrWho said:

Scratch that....

After hearing the Jubilee at Axpona, I'm no longer interested in the underground version.

 

Ya know, it's kinda funny.....

 

After hearing the underground Jub, I was totally enamored with the K402 and wanted something a bit nicer on the LF side.

 

Then comes the official Jubilee, I've fallen in love with the bass bin and now want a better top end

 

 

 

I think at the end of the day, I might prefer the sound of a 3-way over a 2-way speaker. I was super impressed with the improved refinement of the Jubilee. The 2-way felt super integrated, like it was one speaker - even at short distances. Probably because the HF was covering such a huge bandwidth. It's certainly an elegant solution for sure.

 

But several years ago (back when I was touring with a band), we came across a PA with some horn loaded 10" drivers...similar to the Klipsch Cinema bin that I think uses an 8" driver on the K402? K402MB I think? Anyways, I'll never forget how good I could get the snare drum to sound with that speaker. It's an illusive sound that I have heard on occasion from other systems, but it's the only thing I felt was lacking from the official Jubilee.

 

I've also thought a lot about Mark's preference for his system where I think he might be running 5 way or something? My goodness I feel so outta the Klipsch community loop. Anyways, it's been in the back of my mind for years how the bandwidth of the driver determines the starting point for that system's IMD performance (due to the doppler effect). The more you divide up the bandwidth, the lower that distortion.....and it seems to me that IMD is heavily related to the sensation of dynamics / impact - especially for percussive sounds since they have such a wide frequency bandwidth to them. The downside to a multi-way system is that you need to combine the wavefronts together....so you're pretty much forced with a tradeoff between point source realism and imaging versus dynamics and impact.

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm curious to get the thoughts of others that got to hear the Jubilee down in Hope. Do you guys hear a similar thing? I'm not totally convinced it's IMD related because the highs didn't flutter around like I would normally expect, but maybe there's something special happening in that driver? I haven't had a chance to read up on its construction. My only other thought was that it might be suspension related...I've heard a similar sound with another driver in the past that was definitely caused by the suspension - and it had a similar effect on the sound.

 

Anyways, just thinking out loud to see what others thought. I'm actually not sure I would prefer a 3-way design either....every system is riddled with its tradeoffs / compromise. I guess I'm just curious if this is the limit of a full bandwidth 2-way design, or if maybe there's a little more meat left on the table for Roy to pursue in version 2? Or would that be version 3 if it were a 3 way?  Ya ya, I know PWK wanted a 2-way and this is a beautiful homage to that vision. Not trying to criticize the design.....just trying to understand it and what I think my preferences might be. Part of that is wanting to understand how the rest of y'all felt too.

March 10th you can listen to them all day in the lab.