Different amps. I Can’t really tell differences

[Klipschtastic]

I’m really not trying to create a stir here but I’ve tried several amps with my Cornwall IVs. First was a Marantz PM7000n, then my Marantz nr1200. I did notice a slight improvement with the 7000n so I decided to upgrade to Marantz 40n. I did notice better bass control with the 40n.  Today I tried my old Yamaha rx 450 from the 80s or 90s I was able to A/B them using an amp switch box. Honestly the difference is negligible between them if any. Maybe I just don’t have a good ear for it but I’m thinking about selling the 40 n now. I bought the Yamaha for like $100 bucks off eBay a few years back and the 40n was $2200 new. I feel like I have gone down a pointless rabbit hole and wasted money with amps. Honestly the one time I did notice enough of a difference between amps is when I bought the NR1200 to replace the Onkyo 9050 on my KLF20s. The Marantz was a sweeter and rounder sound that made me want to listen longer. The Cornwalls are an improvement over the already very good KLFs but I’m just not sure now if the amplification matters as much. Maybe I’m just not really an audiophile and I’ve found my threshold of where the diminishing returns are just not worth it to me. What has been your experience in this regard?  Could this be due to the high efficiency of the Cornwalls not stressing the amps?  I only listen at 60-70 db most of the time. 

[Shakeydeal]

If you can’t hear a difference, consider yourself money ahead and just relax and enjoy the cheapest one and sell anything else.

 

As for me, I can hear it and have long since lost my way in the rabbit hole. There’s no hope for me, so save yourself……

[Klipschtastic]

Haha. Sounds good to me. Pardon the pun. The Cornwalls are really good so they take care of most of the enjoyment factor anyway. 

[OO1]

  the Yamaha AS-1200 amps  fits the CW IV like a glove  ,  Class AB  modern Discrete old school amps  , this amp  would wake up these Cornwalls IV 

 

  it's not cheap   because you get a HIFI amp /preamp/phono stage  

[richieb]

I agree with Shakey. I’ve dug so far down the rabbit hole the next shovel full will put me into China.

As you start spending more and more coin you will hear differences in presentation - 

[the real Duke Spinner]

You really have to spend a substantial amount for a difference after, say $2500

Just an ARBiTRARY FIGURE. 🙃

[avguytx]

There's always a point of diminishing returns for anyone. For me, it's less money since I have tinnitus, HF hearing loss and just hearing loss in general.  

[babadono]

If you WANT to hear a difference you will...especially if you are talking about 5 or 10 minutes between amps to change wires etc.... and of course not between a $50 amp and a $10,000 amp... that better be obvious. But to REALLY compare you have to match level within 0.1 dB........and wait for it...I will be told I am full of sheet..

My $0.02  YMMV

[Shakeydeal]

4 hours ago, babadono said:

If you WANT to hear a difference you will...especially if you are talking about 5 or 10 minutes between amps to change wires etc.... and of course not between a $50 amp and a $10,000 amp... that better be obvious. But to REALLY compare you have to match level within 0.1 dB........and wait for it...I will be told I am full of sheet..

My $0.02  YMMV

 

I agree that when doing quick changes of amps, unless you level match, the louder one will always sound "better". But for me, putting one amp in the system for a whole night of listening, then doing the same the next night with a different amp gives me more information. It's not all about aural memory. But usually, one of those amps will elicit more enjoyment from the music than the other. And you aren't stressed with trying to quickly listen in a flawed A/B type situation. And when the dust settles and you hear absolutely no discernable difference, you can say this method was as successful as if one was clearly better than the other. Sometimes I even live with one for weeks before reinserting the competing amp. You really need to be in a relaxed state when making these decisions.

[Peter P.]

It is said our audio memory is only 20 seconds. Assuming that is true, manually swapping amps for side by side comparisons

is a fool's errand.

 

The question is, are you listening TO YOUR AMPS or to YOUR MUSIC?

 

I'm not so sure people are going down rabbit holes. I think they're actually Black Holes...

 

Save your money and listen to your music.

[Shakeydeal]

46 minutes ago, Peter P. said:

It is said our audio memory is only 20 seconds. Assuming that is true, manually swapping amps for side by side comparisons

is a fool's errand.

 

The question is, are you listening TO YOUR AMPS or to YOUR MUSIC?

 

I'm not so sure people are going down rabbit holes. I think they're actually Black Holes...

 

Save your money and listen to your music.

 

 

I agree with point number one, which is why I rarely do it.

 

I listen to music. But unfortunately, for the time being at least, I have to do that through the equipment. There is nothing wrong with seeking out gear that better connects you to the music you love. Diminishing returns kicks in at some point, but it's up to the individual to decide if they "go further" or "they are done".

 

I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the means almost as much as the end.

 

 

[Fido]

I love music and also enjoy the pursuit of hearing it in the comfort of my own home with my highly resolving and engaging audio gear. For me its not just the music or some awesome sounding speakers or great sounding amp etc etc... Synergy and personal taste are most important for me. Years of having Klipsch speakers from my Forte 1s to my Forte IVs I am used to their sound signature and love them. I likely will never be done changing out gear but I don't need to AB every component ever made to enjoy them. 

 

 I am very happy with the music playing in our home.

[Zen Traveler]

9 minutes ago, Fido said:

... Synergy and personal taste are most important for me. Years of having Klipsch speakers from my Forte 1s to my Forte IVs I am used to their sound signature and love them. I likely will never be done changing out gear but I don't need to AB every component ever made to enjoy them. 

I agree with the first part but the only time I'm changing out gear is when something breaks. I'm a multichannel guy and wish I could out-in-out justify upgrading to a head unit with the newer codexes but I've been pretty happy for almost 2 decades...

 

On the music front, I'm definitely a source guy and usually think about the day and let my imagination rule while listening to familiar material. 

 

[Zen Traveler]

4 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the means almost as much as the end.

Ha! That was me my first ten years on the Forum. 😎

[Zen Traveler]

On 9/10/2023 at 3:26 PM, Klipschtastic said:

I’m really not trying to create a stir here but I’ve tried several amps with my Cornwall IVs.

I didn't see this mentioned but similarly designed SS amps should sound identical and where you'll see differences is in the preamp. That's my take. If you really want to hear differences in amps it seems Tubes is the way to go. 

[Shakeydeal]

12 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I didn't see this mentioned but similarly designed SS amps should sound identical and where you'll see differences is in the preamp. That's my take. If you really want to hear differences in amps it seems Tubes is the way to go. 

 

That's the thing, they rarely are. Unless you are talking about A/V receivers, yeah they are all more alike than different, and all pretty bad.

 

I have heard some solid state amps that I just couldn't be in the same room with. And some that are pretty darn good for SS (Plinius, Coda, McCormack, Schiit).

 

I agree that the preamp is important. Even better when you can get the job done with a good passive device. A well designed passive will beat most expensive preamps when the rest of the system is on board.

 

As always, these are my opinions only and YMMV.....

 

[the real Duke Spinner]

I have a Quicksilver FF pre to Grown

I have heard friends 25000_ more expensive systems It's not the electronics It's the Speakers where most of the difference lies

[Fido]

This is an interesting conversation. I can’t articulate what is the most important single component in my audio equipment setup. Is it the amp, turntable, speakers, streamer, DAC, subwoofer or?? When my father passed away I inherited his Forte 1s and they were my main speakers for over 20 years. I Love these speakers but eventually replaced them as my mains a couple of years ago with Forte IVs. Moved the Forte 1s to my back surrounds. Along the way I changed out my amps from a Yamaha AVR to a McIntosh hybrid integrated and then  replaced the McIntosh with my current amp a 100% tube Integrated Primaluna EVO 400. I have no clue if the PL sounds better than the McIntosh or better than my Yamaha AVR or if the REL Sub is better than my HSU Sub or my Venus DAC better than the DAC in my Node 2i. Bottom line is I enjoy the journey and I can enjoy system tweaks over time without over analyzing the life out of it. Does the music sound good? Hell yes it does. for me that’s what matters most. It’s ok to enjoy cool electronic gear which I do.

[Bananas and Blow]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:16 AM, Shakeydeal said:

 

I agree that when doing quick changes of amps, unless you level match, the louder one will always sound "better". But for me, putting one amp in the system for a whole night of listening, then doing the same the next night with a different amp gives me more information. It's not all about aural memory. But usually, one of those amps will elicit more enjoyment from the music than the other. And you aren't stressed with trying to quickly listen in a flawed A/B type situation. And when the dust settles and you hear absolutely no discernable difference, you can say this method was as successful as if one was clearly better than the other. Sometimes I even live with one for weeks before reinserting the competing amp. You really need to be in a relaxed state when making these decisions.

I agree with this. I sometimes need even longer than an evening of listening to decide. Moods and music choice can play a factor as well. And in the end I use the same deciding factor as Shakey: which did I enjoy the most? What amp took me out of critical listening mode and into another place musically? The longer Im in the audiophile game the quicker I've gotten about deciding what I like because I've learned what sound I like to listen to the most. And that sound is Klipsch with tubes. 

[Bananas and Blow]

I agree with the consensus that the preamp makes the biggest difference in the sound you are feeding your horns :).  Especially with easy to drive Heritage speakers. I used to have separates but have gone to mostly being interested in integrated amps so I lump the preamp and amp sound together.  One amp I would REALLY like to try with my Fortes is the Pass Labs XA25. But the pass integrated version has such a basic premp section it doesn't work for me. And that means finding a quality tube amp to run the Pass. And now it's becoming a very expensive endeavor to improve upon my Cary SLI-80 integrated which is the perfect amp for my tastes with the Fortes.

 

I may go to separates at some point simply because I would really like to try out a Mac MC225 or MC30s at some point.  I also want to try a modern Mac integrated. But I'm still not sure they would best the sound I'm getting from my current sweet little integrated.