45 SET.. Do I need a preamp

[Flevoman]

I managed to get hold of two 45 SET 2x monoblocks today.

I'm happy with it because I was curious about how a 45 SET would sound.

However, all the amplifiers I've had so far have always been integrated amplifiers.

It's the first time I own two monoblocks.

Currently, I still use the preamp section of my streamer (Cambridge CXN V2) to control the volume.

And here comes my question.

If I only need a volume controller, can I just continue using this Cambridge Streamer?

Or does a separate high-quality preamp make the sound better, and is it advisable to get a preamp for this reason?

 

[Shakeydeal]

Depends on the input impedance and sensitivity of the amplifier. And the output impedance and voltage of your source. It certainly could work.

[CWelsh]

Congratulations on the new monoblocks! I will be interested to hear what you think of them.

 

I've been trying to research this same question for some of the additions I hope to make in the future. What I've read suggests that devices like CD players and streamers should have enough output voltage to drive an amplifier without an additional gain stage. However, a passive preamp might be beneficial for impedance matching. I know there are others who have far more knowledge than me, so I hope they will chime in and correct me if I am wrong.

 

Currently, I am using the preamp section of my Marantz 1060 between my Bluesound Node streamer and my ACA. I tried going direct from the Node to the ACA and it works, but the addition of the preamp seems to make a huge difference. I keep trying to dig for specs that will explain why, but I haven't been able to find anything so far...at least not that I can understand.

[Shakeydeal]

31 minutes ago, CWelsh said:

Congratulations on the new monoblocks! I will be interested to hear what you think of them.

 

I've been trying to research this same question for some of the additions I hope to make in the future. What I've read suggests that devices like CD players and streamers should have enough output voltage to drive an amplifier without an additional gain stage. However, a passive preamp might be beneficial for impedance matching. I know there are others who have far more knowledge than me, so I hope they will chime in and correct me if I am wrong.

 

Currently, I am using the preamp section of my Marantz 1060 between my Bluesound Node streamer and my ACA. I tried going direct from the Node to the ACA and it works, but the addition of the preamp seems to make a huge difference. I keep trying to dig for specs that will explain why, but I haven't been able to find anything so far...at least not that I can understand.

The Node volume control is done in the digital domain and it’s not a very sophisticated one at that. When you attenuate past a certain point, you are throwing away bits. Not good. So it’s no wonder a preamp sounds better. But if you have enough front end gain, a well designed passive pre will beat most all comers.

[Flevoman]

10 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

Depends on the input impedance and sensitivity of the amplifier. And the output impedance and voltage of your source. It certainly could work.

 

Okay, so it depends on various values. Is this a matter of trial and error, or can you find these values somewhere to determine if it's a good match?

 

The reason I'm asking this is because the person who also built my 300B SET is trying to convince me to use a separate tube preamplifier. According to him, this should provide a noticeably improved sound. While he's a trustworthy person and we have a good relationship, spending €2500 without knowing the outcome feels like a significant gamble. The market for used preamplifiers is vast, making it challenging to know where to start or which one would be the best to try. I'm currently seeking more information on what a preamplifier can do for the sound and whether it's indeed a likely upgrade compared to my built-in preamplifier.

[Flevoman]

10 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

The Node volume control is done in the digital domain and it’s not a very sophisticated one at that. When you attenuate past a certain point, you are throwing away bits. Not good. So it’s no wonder a preamp sounds better. But if you have enough front end gain, a well designed passive pre will beat most all comers.

Well, it's a 45 SET with 1.5W only, so my volume controle of the cambridge is around the 65%.. 

[Flevoman]

11 hours ago, CWelsh said:

Congratulations on the new monoblocks! I will be interested to hear what you think of them.

 

I've been trying to research this same question for some of the additions I hope to make in the future. What I've read suggests that devices like CD players and streamers should have enough output voltage to drive an amplifier without an additional gain stage. However, a passive preamp might be beneficial for impedance matching. I know there are others who have far more knowledge than me, so I hope they will chime in and correct me if I am wrong.

 

Currently, I am using the preamp section of my Marantz 1060 between my Bluesound Node streamer and my ACA. I tried going direct from the Node to the ACA and it works, but the addition of the preamp seems to make a huge difference. I keep trying to dig for specs that will explain why, but I haven't been able to find anything so far...at least not that I can understand.

 

I have various amplifiers, including a 300B SET, 2A3 PP, and this 45 SET. The 2A3 PP was my favorite so far. The 300B has more oompf, but, to my taste, it adds too much warmth to the music. I prefer a slightly cleaner sound without sacrificing musicality or the live experience.

Describing the 45 SET is a bit challenging, I just have it 😄. Surprisingly, the 2A3 PP performs best in terms of soundstage (which I didn't expect). But first impression , the 45 SET seems to capture the most detail. It has a bit more sparkle, occasionally sounding a bit sharp. It's quite dynamic and very musical; some songs can come across as transparent and very real. And this is something I really love. 

I've ordered different preamp tubes, which are on their way (uncertain of the age of the current ones). This might alter the sound. As for the power tubes, I'm in good shape with nearly new Emission Labs 45B.

 

It's a Welborne DRD45

In real life the wood is more dark

[Shakeydeal]

1 hour ago, Flevoman said:

Well, it's a 45 SET with 1.5W only, so my volume controle of the cambridge is around the 65%.. 

The position of the volume control has nothing to do with the power output of the amp.

[Flevoman]

12 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

The Node volume control is done in the digital domain and it’s not a very sophisticated one at that. When you attenuate past a certain point, you are throwing away bits. Not good. So it’s no wonder a preamp sounds better. But if you have enough front end gain, a well designed passive pre will beat most all comers.

It was more a reaction to what you have said here. About the certain point. 

[Shakeydeal]

Well if you are using it with ample volume control and you feel like you aren’t losing dynamics and slam, I’d say it is working just fine. Ideally you want to use as little attenuation as possible and be at the upper 2/3s of the range, not near the beginning of the range.

 

So the question is, how does it sound to you? You might still get better results with an active pre, but most of the time you know right away it’s not a good match.

[hanksjim1]

I will point out what you already know; The variables in sound depending on the combinations really require the ability to try out a prospective preamp with the ability to return after careful listening over several days.

 

I have a 300b PP and a set of EL34 SETs.  I have had excellent results with passive preamps, tubes and SS preamps with both; all very different sounding.

 

All sounding better than using just my Benchmark DAC volume control, even given the shorter signal path.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Here's a link to a very nice passive preamp that won't set you back a lot of $:

 

https://luminousaudio.com/collections/axiom-ii-passive-preamp

[tube fanatic]

The less “stuff” in the signal path the better, especially if the device is powered.  As long as you can drive the amps to the levels you desire all is well.  If a source has variable output, direct connection to the amps would be ideal.

 

Maynard

[henry4841]

5 hours ago, Flevoman said:

The reason I'm asking this is because the person who also built my 300B SET is trying to convince me to use a separate tube preamplifier. 

Having both many tube preamps along with SS ones I found a tube pre with a SET tube amplifier too much of a good thing. Talking 2nd harmonics. Naturally sound being subjective many do like the added 2nd harmonics a tube pre with a SET brings to the table. I prefer using SS volume control device myself with a SET and a tube pre with a SS amplifier for some added 2nd harmonics when in the mood.    

 

I am curious on your thoughts of the SET 45 tube compared to your amps. Look forward to review. Supposedly a SET 45 is a very accurate sounding amplifier. In other words a violin sounds like a true violin. 

[Coytee]

Years ago, I was rewiring some of the rats nest of wires I had.

 

Turned system on and not knowing what the difference was, could immediately tell a clear improvement in the sound quality.  Everything just sounded more real and less steril however, I had never thought it sounded steril before.

 

Seems some stupid oaf (uh....  me?) messed up the wiring and without knowing it, had plumbed the CD player directly into the power amp (1-volt input sensitivity) 

 

I was drop jawed and how much nicer it sounded.  Downfall is, I had zero volume control so it was that level and no more, nor, no less.  It wasn't blaring loud either but rather a nice room filling volume.

 

Fixed the wiring and have never forgotten that.  So I'd agree with Maynard above, the less 'stuff' the better.  The preamp I was using was a (good working condition) tube preamp to boot.

[OO1]

7 hours ago, Flevoman said:

 

It's a Welborne DRD45

   beautiful amps   , @Marvel   used to own  Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs  

[JMeader]

Pre amps are about signal gain prior to your amp and are generally a positive enhancement, but truly depends your total system components .

 

I have a Decware Torii Jr V2 and use a Schit Freya S ( non tube ) pre-amp which is fed by a Denafrips Pontus 2 12th-1 via XLR connectors

 

Normal listening is pre-amp 50% and Decware at 50%, with the pre-amp use as volume control

 

This combo in my system works extremely well, with enhanced sound stage and clarity.

 

BTW I just added two sound absorbers behind my listening position and that also help over all enjoyment

 

 

[Flevoman]

4 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

So the question is, how does it sound to you? You might still get better results with an active pre, but most of the time you know right away it’s not a good match.

It has more than enough dynamic. 

So if this is how you can test if it is a good match than I think the match is fine. 

Do I like it?.. Ehmm.. Yeah, I think so 😏. 

I'm still trying to figure out whether the songs don't sound quite right due to the amp or the song's production.

 

3 hours ago, hanksjim1 said:

 

I have a 300b PP and a set of EL34 SETs.  I have had excellent results with passive preamps, tubes and SS preamps with both; all very different sounding.

 

All sounding better than using just my Benchmark DAC volume control, even given the shorter signal path.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. A passive preamp is essentially just a volume control in the audio signal, and nothing else happens to the audio signal, right? Thanks for the link; I'm not familiar with this preamp, but they seem very reasonably priced.

 

2 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Having both many tube preamps along with SS ones I found a tube pre with a SET tube amplifier too much of a good thing. Talking 2nd harmonics. Naturally sound being subjective many do like the added 2nd harmonics a tube pre with a SET brings to the table. I prefer using SS volume control device myself with a SET and a tube pre with a SS amplifier for some added 2nd harmonics when in the mood

 

Thanks for your perspective.

I understand what you mean, and I've had a similar feeling with the 300B amp. I have two different 300B SETs, and both sound good, but to me, there's a bit too much warmth over the music. That's why I find the 2A3 and now the 45 tube more pleasing. They have a somewhat similar character to the 300B but cleaner in sound, with the 45 being the most neutral/clean in my opinion. Perhaps a tube preamp could be a good match because of this..

By the way, I still enjoy listening to the 300B occasionally; it's a very nice amp 😉.

 

I will create a post about my impressions about this amp. I always enjoy reading others' experiences, and maybe others would find it interesting to read about my impressions as well.

 

36 minutes ago, OO1 said:

beautiful amps   , @Marvel   used to own  Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs  

Thank you 😊

I can unfortunately not find much information about this amplifier, except that it also comes from America. Well, making cars might not be your strong suit, but apparently, you're doing something very well when it comes to audio 😉

But can you tell me what level this amp is? Is it a good beginner's amp, or is it considered a more serious amplifier?

[Flevoman]

I suddenly remembered that I still have an old preamp lying in the attic from my first audio period about 20 years ago, a Peraux. I connected it to see what it does, and yes, I hear a difference. But do I like it? Not really I think. 

 

Without the preamp, the sound has more sharp edges, sounding even more pure and unfiltered, which can give some songs a bit of a raw edge. This might be less pleasant for some songs, but others can sound very pure, detailed, and realistic. In a way, it's a delightful experience that I haven't heard on the La Scala before.

It seems like with the preamp, everything sounds a bit friendlier, but the magic is somewhat lost. It just sounds good now. Without the preamp, some songs are a bit too shrill or have sharp edges, but others can sound fantastic.

 

Perhaps this preamp is not a good match, I don't know, but I took it out again and am listening without it, and this feels better. The music has just a fraction more dynamic, bit more raw, as if it carries a bit more information.

[CWelsh]

8 hours ago, Flevoman said:

 

I have various amplifiers, including a 300B SET, 2A3 PP, and this 45 SET. The 2A3 PP was my favorite so far. The 300B has more oompf, but, to my taste, it adds too much warmth to the music. I prefer a slightly cleaner sound without sacrificing musicality or the live experience.

Describing the 45 SET is a bit challenging, I just have it 😄. Surprisingly, the 2A3 PP performs best in terms of soundstage (which I didn't expect). But first impression , the 45 SET seems to capture the most detail. It has a bit more sparkle, occasionally sounding a bit sharp. It's quite dynamic and very musical; some songs can come across as transparent and very real. And this is something I really love. 

I've ordered different preamp tubes, which are on their way (uncertain of the age of the current ones). This might alter the sound. As for the power tubes, I'm in good shape with nearly new Emission Labs 45B.

 

It's a Welborne DRD45

In real life the wood is more dark

Beautiful! I love the minimalist look. Reminds me of @henry4841's Little Sweetie projects.

 

In my initial comment I should have added, one of the things I'm looking for in preamp, whether active or passive, is switching for multiple inputs. The Marantz does that for me and includes a pretty decent phono stage, but I still wonder if I could do better.

[Tarheel]

I used a Schiit SYS for a bit with QS Horn Monos.  A passive preamp with volume control and 2 inputs.  Around $55 on Amazon.