More tube questions

[Coytee]

It's all Brap's fault for letting me hear his tube setup with the K-horns I got from him... ya... his fault.

Ok, the more I listen to my K-horns with my ss, the more I think I "get it" regarding difference in sound. I only heard his tube amp for maybe an hour max and I know I'm not getting that kind of sound from them.

Since the speakers were not in corners at his house (but the chair WAS at optimal placement relative to speakers) and at my house the speakers ARE in corners (but no chair at optimal location) I'm left to conclude that the flatness of their sound has got to be because of my ss stuff.

I wont buy anything without learing about it first (call me anal) and so I'm trying to read about tube stuff.

My wish list:

1. (listen to rock & roll) want to be able to crack some paint with volume every now & then

2. Want the bass to be SOLID and absolutly participating

3. Want remote control

4. Stronly prefer integrated but would consider seperate

5. Want it to play the classical stuff I listen to with aplomb

6. Although I liked the looks of exposed tube, it's not necessary

7. I want replacement tubes to be easily obtained

8. I PREFER US made, even if I pay more (we GOTTA support ourselves and I'm willing to do my share)

If I was going to buy it for YOU as a X-mas gift, and you had the above criteria, what brand/model would you look at? I don't want to say "money no object" because it always is, but at least for a STARTING point, let's say it.

Oh, and I'm not necessarily against used either...

Just for record, what I'm noticing with my SS is a very flat soundstage. I feel like I'm listening to the speakers, rather than a soundstage in front of me. Brap played some interesting drum solo for me and you could just "see" the drummer in front of you hitting his various drums to the left/right. I don't sense any depth like that as I'm currently setup

Sigh... he's ruined me for life... my ignorance has been exposed/enlightened and it's all his fault (and much appreciated too)

[T2K]

Buy new, forget restoring the older stuff. More trouble than it is worth in my experience. By the time you buy a junker, restore it, fix it, ship it, ship it again, buy tubes that are no good several times, etc. you'll have as much invested as you would have had you bought new.

Check out Antique Sound Lab and Jolida.

Good luck.

Keith

[oscarsear]

I returned new and modified Jolida, too noisy. Replaced it with Cary SLI-80 which is very quite. Had to upgrade tubes to get the performance where I wanted it (Yugo KT-90's, Brimar 6SN7's, Amperex 6922's and RCA rectifiers 5U4G's). I'm a very happy camper now!!

[middlecreekguy]

On the flip side of what Keith said, buying used can give you a lot of bang for your buck. And they don`t have to be fixer uppers either.

My amp and pre would have cost me $3400 new. I got everything for $1400. That`s a huge savings. And they sound lovely. Cosmetically flawless.

Audiogon and ebay are your friend.

Just do a lot of research and choose wisely.

[seti]

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On 11/27/2004 7:29:24 PM middlecreekguy wrote:

Just do a lot of research and choose wisely.

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Hey and if you don't choose wisely just post it and sell it and buy again

[garymd]

Vintage gear with a good rebuild from a reputable tech can be very rewarding and very inexpensive. I've had my scott for almost 2 years now and haven't had any problems at all. Total investment: $640 Enjoyment: Priceless

[Audio Flynn]

I agree with Gary.

I had to put in a nw power transormer on my Scott LK-48 but it sounded much better than the stock transformer so it was more of an upgrade than repair.

[dodger]

I agree with Gary as long as the unit is in very ggood + physical shape and it's not just a piece you wanted when you were younger.

Go to different stores, different friends and listen. If possible borrow over a weekend so you can actually hear the sound in your own room on your own equipment.

Listen to Rock, Classical, Blues, Female Vocals. If you lean toward the new, see if there is a current or last year's model on AudiogoN, or maybe eBay.

Make your goal sound at the best price. I've bought a lot of used and only been burned twice. One of those was through AudiogoN and I proved the unit was nowhere near the stated condition. I was only out shipping as they found in my favor and I could return the unit and get my money back.

Let your ears be your guides. What may sound good to me, may stink to you. Also some recommendations include an appreciation value, such as McIntosh. I own a lot of it. It's good, but I know there's better. And for less money.

In between auditions, make it a point to listen to CDs/Albums that you have not listened to for a while. Keep your enthusiasm for listening to the music and not just the equipment up.

If you find a piece used at a good price either buy some music you have wanted but have not gotten around to or save it towards getting another sourc that you don't have.

But don't let yourself be talked into a unit.

dodger

[Coytee]

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On 11/28/2004 11:28:12 AM dodger wrote:

Also some recommendations include an appreciation value, such as McIntosh. I own a lot of it. It's good, but I know there's better. And for less money.

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At the (unintended) risk of sounding like I'm trying to start a war...this is kind of what I'm looking for.

"What" (in your opinion of course) do you conisder better than Macintosh?

I've looked at their website, Jolida, conrad/johnson, cary Audio, and I belive a couple more that I can't currently think of.

What I hear is tube "abc" is better (for lack of better word) than "xyz", then someone else loves "xyz" for different reasons...

for someone who knows abosolutely *nothing* about tubes, how they work, how their designed, how they sound, what I fear is wondering into this foray blind... and ending up with a "bose'ish" type tube amp... one that had I just known a bit better, I might have not done.

again, Mr. Budget is always a concern, but I was really hoping people would name more names so I could do more research. I mean, it's kind of difficult to learn about brands, when you dont know any names?

As a partial clarifier, I do not know ANYONE that has tubes and I know even fewer that have Klipsch, let alone, K-horns so leaning on a friend unfortunately, isn't an option...

[Deang]

Well, we listen to the same kind of music, and I probably also listen to some harder stuff, and for me -- the only thing that gets it is the KT-88 output tube in a push-pull configuration. You'll need between 40 and 60 watts to get it done.

If you tell me the size of your room, and how much you are willing to shell out -- I think I can give you some good recommendations.

[Marvel]

Where are you in Tennessee? We might be able to hook you up with someoen where you could go have a listen.

Marvel

[dodger]

There are a number of SET amps.

Cary can be more detailed.

If you like a warm sound yes the McIntosh ARE good.

I do not take any umbrage at your question. I'm the one that made the statement. It would be me that McIntosh owners would be irritated with.

But where I live is about 3 1/2 hours from the McIntosh Factory. So the availability and the choice when I was younger was McIntosh.

Part of my McIntosh collection is somewhat for my retirement.

That said, I have:

2 MC 60 Monoblocks,

2 MC 240s,

a Solid State 2120

a C-20 pre-amp

an MX-110 Tuner/Pre-amp

a 1900 Receiver

an MC 122 amp (ss) on its way

a 4100 Receiver

I have heard a Scott 299 with better soundstaging. Basically I am a Vintage unit owner.

I am awaiting a Pair of Mark Deneen's new Amps.

My comments were made as I know that not all are McIntosh fans. Marantz 8Bs are very good.

There are a number of tubed units on the market. I don't claim to have heard them all nor to know all that is available. I feel that a number of Companies cash in on the tube market with over-priced equipment - even though McIntosh commands a high price.

I could recommend an MC 225 - a number of people like those. MC 30s are also popular as is the 240 and 275. Original 275s seem to be the holding units. I see a lot of the re-issues for sale.

At this point, I am working on my SS set up. Parasound is my goal - the Halo line. NAD is also a good brand in SS.

But for more recommendations on tube, I will defer to others. My comment regarding McIntosh stems from hearing the phrase: "the lush or warm sound of McIntosh." That causes me to believe there are other units that may sound better. Sorry that I could not be of more help.

I also ask that no-one give Coyotee any grief for quoting me.

dodger

[mikebse2a3]

Coytee said:

As a partial clarifier, I do not know ANYONE that has tubes and I know even fewer that have Klipsch, let alone, K-horns so leaning on a friend unfortunately, isn't an option.

--------------------------

Hey Coytee

I live in Maryville,Tn

Left you a PM with a Phone No. if you want to contact me.

mike

[Coytee]

Dean, the room size, though currently in an unfinished state, is approximately 16 by (guessing) 24 with 9 ceilings.

Marvel, Im in Knoxville. Ive been to Statement Audio two times now with specific intent on talking to Tim as Ive been advised both here AND there. The first time, I had a tight time constraint and he was busy yapping on phone for 30 minutes while I waited, so I left. The next time (just last Friday) I went in, was told hell be here any moment now 10 minutes later, hell be here any moment now, 45 minutes later hell be here any moment now I waited just over an hour and had to git again.

Dodger: Im not sure I really understand the difference of a warm verses other sound. That said, when I hear a pipe organ I want the floor/walls to SHAKE with authority. When I hear a drum, I want my chest to feel it. When I hear a single delicate violin playing a soft ending passage I want to cry over it, well, maybe just sniffle.

Mike: I just might call you today if I get time

[Coytee]

I did mean to say TOM

[Colin]

sound slike you will need a sub to go with all but the most monsterous tube amps...

[mark1101]

I agree with Gary and the other guys who comment on vintage rebuilds. I use all my old Scotts regularly and all sound great. No problems.

I could have spent way more to get what I have with these old integrateds.

[dodger]

A "Warm Sound" would tend to be less harsh, some would say not projecting the music, especially the mids and highs.

The tubes that come with the unit would be important in its sound.

Examples:

Telefunken and Amperex Bugle Boy are a little sterile, toward bright IMO.

Brimar and Mullard are clear detailed without harshness.

I know that this is all confusing. Until you learn. Tom has a website for his used McIntosh and also other equipment brands.

If you see something that may be interesting put it in quotation marks on Google then search. You may find some reviews. Or if you see the piece in someone's system listing PM them and ask about quality, where made, reliability, etc.. Then look for a good used unit.

I did hear Gary's 299. Very nice sounding Integrated piece that Craig from NOS Valves has tons of experience with.

dodger

[T2K]

During the short periods of time that my various Scott integrateds actually worked I was able to determine one thing using them with my Chorus I's and II's. That is, that the difference in the output of the 222-C and the 233 were easily noticable in both the quality and amount of bass, the 233 much more preferable to my ears. My advice would be to note Dean's suggestion on power output.

Keith

[mike stehr]

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On 11/27/2004 4:13:49 PM T2K wrote:

Buy new, forget restoring the older stuff. More trouble than it is worth in my experience. By the time you buy a junker, restore it, fix it, ship it, ship it again, buy tubes that are no good several times, etc. you'll have as much invested as you would have had you bought new.

DIY!!!!