Tubes better than SS??? BAH!

[codhead]

"I also thought the warm sound from tubes was mostly "fuzz"..."

Perhaps this explains the popularity of the "Peach" preamp. []

[seti]

fuzz LOL

I love music and I have loved the sound from tubes since I first heard some quad II's years ago. It could be part nostalgia but I love the tubes eminating light. Also the look on peoples face that come over and look puzzeled at the "light bulbs making music" lik a blonde friend once said after I explained it to her. I have also heard incredible ss systems but they were many many times more expensive than mine. When I read audio equipment reviews and they say things like "very tube like" why not just go straight to tubes lol.

To each his own LOVE ENJOY MUSIC

[jt1stcav]

..."Also the look on peoples faces that come over and look puzzeled at the "light bulbs making music" like a blonde friend once said after I explained it to her."

Hey, I resemble that remark...hee hee![:^)]

[jbsl]

I like both! I have a SS preamp and a tube amp.

It is not a question of which is better for everyone else but which is better for you!

If you are happy with your current set up stop right now before you get yourself into trouble. If you feel like something is missing from the way the music sounds then tube gear might be worth trying.

[SilverSport]

Hey, I just like to be informed and I am open to whatever is out there,,,who knows what the best sound is??? Only YOU can decide what is the best sound to YOU...I am in the Riverside-Brookfield area and I have heard tubes before but I am just starting over in this and don't want to open Pandora's Box (perhaps too late for that, eh???) and I appreciate all your comments.

Thanks for the help and kind offers...perhaps I have that old Sherwood monaural rebuilt and give it a whirl but then that is not a fair test as the Sherwood is far from a "Rolls Royce" too...

Thanks,

Bill

[kev313]

This place has been really interesting lately. We have gone from the now classic arguments of PP vs. SET to threads discussing how vinyl sucks, tubes suck, and why Heritage needs at least 300 - 500 watts.

OK, maybe I'm overstating things a bit, but who hit the "1988" button?

[jacksonbart]

BAH!

[LousyTourist]

I am sure that there are good SS amps out there; I haven't heard them all despite a couple decades of trying.

But when I bought a $500 Steve Deckert tube amp (which I immediately returned) I nearly jumped out of my skin on the first track.. Albert King, I think it was.

Ol' Albert sounded like he was sitting on the table next to me with his guitar.

I've never looked back....

[meagain]

Well, if any of you Chicago area people are going to have a listening session, and can fit in 1-2 more people - count me in?

[JJkizak]

I used tubes from 1950 thru 1985 and the only thing that impressed me about them was how bad they were after I converted to SS.

I used tubes on the Dewline Troposcatter heavy com and radar systems by the bushel full and was extrtemely thankful when the conversion started to SS.

What a sigh of relief when the first GE SS taxi cab vehicle radios were installed. Those radios reduced maintenance by about 99.9 %.

What a sigh of relief when the test equipment was upgraded to Hewlett-Packard stuff.

We used some pretty exotic stuff and the calibrations would hold for 6 months instead of 1 day.

What a sigh of relief when the Air/Ground radios were upgraded to SS. Reduced maintenance by about 95%

What a sigh of relief when you didn't have to wait 4 hours for equipment to warm up and settle in for optimum performance.

If I had saved all of those rotton tubes that went out in bushel baskets I could have sold them to all of you tube nuts and been a millionaire.

JJK

[meagain]

I personally can't get past losing the remote. I've yet to see one that has one and in my eyes, losing the ability to use a remote is like losing my microwave oven. Heck - indoor plumbing! I just can't imagine getting up and walking across the room to turn it up or down constantly.

[SilverSport]

Here's the thing...a little over a year ago I decided to buy HT stuff...found this place and was going to buy Yamaha and Synergy...after reading here and re-listening (I had stopped after a move and never got around to hooking back up my Nakamichi and KG2s) to what I had, I decided that I PREFERRED Heritage and got a sweet pair of Heresys (thanx Chicago_Pete!) and then listened more here and found a deal on a MAC 1900 (thanx dodger!) because MAC was supposed to be SO much better than what I had...I bought Outlaw stuff for the HT and had the 2 channel upstairs...then a deal on the MA-6200 (sweet...Win again!) then the K'Horns and another set of Heresys then an Academy...WHEW!!! I enjoy listening to all of this...I found my Dad's old Sherwood Monaural...got a matching tuner off of eBay (never listened to yet...needs a refreshening) and well...I went overboard in the buying department last year or so...

I like to read what goes on here and read MANY threads on the old tube v SS and well this lead me to my original question...apparently others had this question as well...I am NOT knocking tubes or SS...just wondered since I have decent SS gear would I realize a dramatic jump up to tubes soundwise...I don't think I did jumping from Nakamichi STASIS to McIntosh (at least not as much as I thought I would)...I have shared the wealth with friends, bringing several into the Klipsch fold from elsewhere so......

Thanks for all the responses here, I will keep my ears open for that tube sound...decide for myself if I like tubes better than SS...I will make sure I compare good SS (I think I have decent SS) to good tubes (NOT the Sherwood) and make my own conclusions...

Thanks again,

Bill

[Colin]

What Mdeneen said, except:

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

q Even simple $500 tube amplifier can compete with $5,000 super amplifiers (<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />NelsonPass majestic $6K, Single-Ended, Class-A, X250 Stereo Amplifier, February 2002, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0202/passx250.htm) in reproducing the glorious mid-range

q Even a simple $35 Sonic Impact 5066 class T digital amplifier can compete with $6,000 Delta Studio 6s33 SE tube amplifier in reproducing tight (if not powerful) bass and sizzling highs.

q Nothing works better with tube amplifiers than awesome efficient classic Klipsch corner Khorns

q If any solid-state amplifier can compete, it could be Macs, or Nelsons latest First Watt amplifiers

q It does depend on what kind of music you like and how loud

[H]

[oscarsear]

Read the 1st page of posts and decided to reply. I'm sure pages 2 and 3 aren't much different.

I went to tubes from SS. Tried Jolida and Cary integrateds both purchased new. Yeah the highs were there but the bass was always underpowered. Since my Cary came with a built in sub output I presume they knew it was weak in the bass from the outset. Then there's the tubes. I must have resided under a little black cloud when it came to tube failures. At least 5 episodes I can easily recall. They blew up on initial outings and faded into chirping artifact in time. Worried me constantly as to which tubes were going to die next and how I was going to 'splain it to the Mrs. Those here tell me that my tube failure experience was way abnormal ...as did my retailer and tube provider ...and the device manufacturers. But fail they did and good tubes are not cheap and are rarely warranted.

So I returned to SS. Not just any SS. It was going to be Mac or Accuphase and it ended up being the Accuphase E-530 integrated. Happy, Happy ...Joy, Joy!!! Not cheap stuff but I'll gladly put it up against similar costing tube product any day of any week. Bass that is truly powerful, not shy, not whumpy. Sound stage, definition, dimension, purity...it's all there. Turn it on and play, day after loving-it day. No frets no worries.

Just my .02 ............[H]

[T2K]

I've got a Scott 222-C that has been repaired and will be back to me next week. It will be for sale if you're interested. I'm going to have another 222-C for sale soon and also a Scott 233. And some Scott wood cabinets too.

Keith

[Johnny dB]

uagain, alot of tube gear out of China will have a remote; ASL, TAD to name a couple. You might pay a premium for it, but hey it's nice. I use a CDP that has variable gain on the remote and I control volume that way. I usually have the volume all the way up on the CDP, adjust the volume on the integrated amp to my listening level and then if the phone rings or someone is talking I can attenuate with the CDP remote. There is also company's that make a pre-pre that adds a remote between the source and the pre. I think it's Transcendent maybe not, though. It seemed to be spendy at around $600. Oh by the way, it wouldn't be a waste of time to go and listen to somebody elses setup. Yes there will be some room variations, but bring your SS gear and some music you're very familiar with and see what you think.

ss, I think you're on the right track with drawing your own conclusions. I will tell you it will be more dramatic of a change than going from current SS to vintage SS. Whether you like it or not is subjective. I will tell you this, anyone who has come over to my house that has never even seen a tube was completely blown away. "That amp is 45 years old and sounds that good." I'm from the SS generation and not a single contemporary of mine has heard a tube anything. I didn't know of tube gear until this forum. I thought my Adcom GFA555 was the shiznit.

It's a hobby, for me anyway not a way of life. It's about the music and the love of it, not the source and the amps. I believe many get to a point and it becomes more of a status symbol. Don't fall into that pitfall. That's when you're on BB like this one talking more about the gear than actually listening to it. I had to take a year hiatus from this place just to listen again. It is a fun and expensive journey!

[Jeff Matthews]

This is almost like CD vs. Vinyl. Many swear Vinyl is superior, yet many say "What are you talking about?" As is apparent, you have a good number of experienced people on both sides of the debate, repeating "yes it is,""no it's not," etc. I think the fact that this debate never ends is a testimony to the marginality of difference, if any.

Plus, you have some folks pushing the idea that maybe their SS sounds as good as tubes because it's a particular brand - one of only the few that compete with tube quality.

There are SO MANY diverse high-end brands of SS out there, such a statement cannot be remotely true. Hi-fi is very competitive and diverse.

Here's my hypothesis:

(1) Some tubes blow away very good SS;

(2) Some SS's blow away very good tubes.

If this were not the case and tubes were THE end in themselves, what do you think makers like McIntosh, Adcom, Denon (and all the other hi-fi names I can't think of) would be doing with their time and effort? If tubes were indeed so superior, I am quite sure their R&D/technicians would have told the boss that by now, and SS would have been abandoned a long time ago. And as far as any argument that SS is cheaper to produce (if this is true), that would have no bearing on high-end. When McIntosh builds a $5k SS amp, I am quite sure it would have gone w/tubes for the extra $200 or so if tubes were THE thing for people with $5k to blow on an amp.

On the other hand, if SS was THE end in itself, what do you think NosValves would be doing with his time and effort? []

I just don't think with all the competition and diversity out there in equipment, anyone could give a categorical answer along these lines one way or the other.

I will say this re: my experience: A tube pre-amp driving my SS Crown was a noticeable improvement. Sure, it was marginal, but it was noticeable. If it was that huge of a difference, I would have dumped by Yammy pre for a tube pre in a heartbeat. Not that I never will because I might. But the difference wasn't enough to make me run to the pawn shops.

On the other hand, a Jolida tube CD player was not any better than my HK SS CD Player. Therein lies proof of my hypothesis, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

[easyeyes]

I made the switch to tubes from SS about 3 years ago, my SS wasn't considered top of the line and then again, my intro to tubes wasn't either. The entry price point was about the same, but to my ears, there was a huge difference in the sound. The Scott 299C mated with my KLF 30s sounded better to me then the mid-priced Yamaha gear I had. I was able to sit and listen to music for long periods of time without getting the dull headache and listening fatigue. From the 299C I upgraded to a quicksilver audio preamp and monos which I still have, the sound of this pair is better than the Scott.

A friend of mine has some really good sounding SS, but the sound comes with a steep price; he has over $20K invested into his system. Can I afford his equipment? Yes! But it's not practical for me to put that much money into a stereo; one thing that I have learned in this hobby is to set a sound/price threshold and for me I'm getting more sound for my dollar in the tube arena. If you are willing to pay for what sounds best to you then go for it, be it SS or tubes.

One good thing about SS is that you can leave it on all the time and not have to worry about warm up, but after 3 years I'm used to getting up and not having a remote.

EE

[Audio Flynn]

I am sure that there are good SS amps out there; I haven't heard them all despite a couple decades of trying.

But when I bought a $500 Steve Deckert tube amp (which I immediately returned) I nearly jumped out of my skin on the first track.. Albert King, I think it was.

Ol' Albert sounded like he was sitting on the table next to me with his guitar.

I've never looked back....

I infer this is pro tube.

For me it was Guennivere by CSN. With tubes they are vocally in the room and have a position in space.

SS I have heard smears the soundstage.

Maybe the Accupohase is a good integrated but at what price?

I have had more problems with fuses than tubes. Inthree years of listening with 2 amps; one bad rectifier is all I have experienced.

[Jeff Matthews]

Easy, you make a point that I missed. I only spoke of expensive SS. Let me supplement:

(1) Price being equal, there are some tubes that blow away very good SS; and

(2) Price being equal, there are some SS's that blow away tubes.

As a matter of fact, I am sure you can find bargains in both categories that, for less money, will outperform their counterparts.