seti Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 **EWPS DUPE** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Yes, our best vinyl produces sound that is richer, warmer and better than our CDs. The existence of a few great CDs makes me think that CDs that equal vinyl are possible, just rare. An old recording engineer I know observed that the industry had about 80 years to learn to baby the special needs of analog recording (including tape), and to refine their FM (F**k'n Magic), and with sufficient time (and dedication!) they may learn to baby digital... One thing to consider is how the harshness adds up ... since vinyl and magnetic tape & film are mellow, somewhat forgiving, and warm, one can get away with slightly harsh original acoustics & mic placement, a bit of brief over-recording, and an instant or two of microphone diaphragm crashing. It seems that digital can't take the briefest bit of over-recording, perhaps even with the unreadable, ultra brief leading edges of peaks that may be lurking in the music more often than we think. A recording style that moves the microphones back might help but there should be no hurry in placing them to get a pleasing, complex, and warm sense of the hall. Pauln said "Mercy beats Justice," and I agree completely. I think the human species should give up on retributive justice, and leave that to the wisdom of God. Humans trying to take vengeance (sometimes presumptuously called "punishment") get in the way of solutions and peace. The Middle East problem, for instance, will never be significantly ameliorated as long as people insist on *** for tat. Mercy, setting an example, facilitation, and providing clear alternatives that help get needs met are too rarely tried. "All we are saying ......" Some might ask, "Why should we? ... They (whoever the "they" are) don't deserve it!" At least two answers: 1) We should, if we want it to work and 2) I don't think whether they deserve it is really up to us. At the very least, retribution &/or punishment should not be tried first. The odd thing about the way we usually impose punishment is that one of the prime rules behaviorists have empirically verified that makes it work (when it works -- it is rarely the method of choice) is often violated. We don't provide what the offending party can see as a clear alternative to the behavior being punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The Middle East problem, for instance, will never be significantly ameliorated as long as people insist on *** for tat. I'm not sure what this has to do with vinyl vs CD, but I am curious about what you call "The Middle East problem." Would this be the problem of Israel unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza, only to be rewarded by Hamas firing hundreds of rockets against civilian targets and the kidnapping of a teenage Israeli soldier? And your answer, let me make sure I'm getting this straight, is to sing to them "All we are saying is give peace a chance." Or is your answer to do nothing because God will eventually take care of everything on Judgment Day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I have a CD free home - won't allow the things near me. Vinyl beats CDs. While we're at it... Beatles beats Rolling Stones Mercy beats Justice Philosophy beats Religion Points and Dwell beats Electronic Ignition Corona beats Heinken Red Heads beat Blondes Pauln You're wrong about points and dwell, and corona...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Garymd: After the first groove rumble, the clicks pops and scratches, the warped record wow, the off center hole flutter and wow pitch changes, the excessive hiss at loud levels, the turntable hum at loud levels, the rounded off transients of the cymbals, the bass response 12 db down from the CD disc, the needle jump when you walk accross the room, the feedback through the turntable base, the end groove rumble, the mechanical distortion caused by the mechanical stylus, the cartridge acting like an antenna, you will loose. JJK I see you owned a turntable too. Forgot about the off center hole,hole,hole, good point. How about the poor quality control issues, warped,full of skips right out of the jacket, and poor sound quality. I stopped buying them at $7.98, got ripped off long enough. Don't you miss making tapes on your reel to reel, only to hear the tell tale RUMBLE. Your right I miss that, that, that,pop,tic,that. reel to reel rocks! buy import vinyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I am not prepared to say CD is better than vinyl, or vinyl is better than CD. Both can be very good and the results you get are very dependant on what you use as a source. I used to think vinyl WAS superior to CD because I used a universal player for everything. Now I own a CEC belt drive CD player (I will post some pics and a forum review soon). The CEC has opened my eyes to the sound quality available from well recorded CD's. We spend so much money on speakers and amplifiers and tend to cut costs where there is the most potential to maximise the sound from the rest of our system. Remember: "Garbage in. Garbage out". The issue of wear and tear and the quality of the software from libraries etc is another issue. Even the hire of DVD's often results in a frustrating evening of stops, starts and glitches which can ruin a movie night. My local DVD hire store has introduced clip-on clear DVD covers that are meant to protect the DVD from scratches etc. It seems to work and the discs are playable. Maybe libraries could use this idea for their loan CD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Now I own a CEC belt drive CD player (I will post some pics and a forum review soon). The CEC has opened my eyes to the sound quality available from well recorded CD's. Intriguing pictures on the internet. Does the belt spin around at 450 rpm? [] Just how does it work??? LP technology is relatively simple: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Pauln said "Mercy beats Justice," and I agree completely. I think the human species should give up on retributive justice, and leave that to the wisdom of God. Humans trying to take vengeance (sometimes presumptuously called "punishment") get in the way of solutions and peace. The Middle East problem, for instance, will never be significantly ameliorated as long as people insist on *** for tat. Mercy, setting an example, facilitation, and providing clear alternatives that help get needs met are too rarely tried. "All we are saying ......" Some might ask, "Why should we? ... They (whoever the "they" are) don't deserve it!" At least two answers: 1) We should, if we want it to work and 2) I don't think whether they deserve it is really up to us. At the very least, retribution &/or punishment should not be tried first. The odd thing about the way we usually impose punishment is that one of the prime rules behaviorists have empirically verified that makes it work (when it works -- it is rarely the method of choice) is often violated. We don't provide what the offending party can see as a clear alternative to the behavior being punished. Whoa, I dont draw the analogy of the Palestinians and the Israels to vinyl to CDs. Not sure which is which in your world or what the color of the sky is for that matter. I usually compare this debate to the industrialists vs those tree hugging, seal kissing greenies who keep crying about global warming and want to raise minimum wage and taxes. Personally I like it warm out, find it cheaper than moving to say Florida. Who knows I could luck out and my property could become beach front in a few years. Yes! That is why I like CDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I have a CD free home - won't allow the things near me. Vinyl beats CDs. While we're at it... Beatles beats Rolling Stones Mercy beats Justice Philosophy beats Religion Points and Dwell beats Electronic Ignition Corona beats Heinken Red Heads beat Blondes Pauln Beatles music beats Stones marketing Mercy BEFORE Justice Contemplating NOTHINGNESS loses to trying to trying to understand SOMETHING Points and Dwell are great on '72 Chevelles and 442s 1 Corona LOSES to 4 Heinikens I live with 3 Blondes. Nolo Contendere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I have a CD free home - won't allow the things near me. Vinyl beats CDs. While we're at it... Beatles beats Rolling Stones Mercy beats Justice Philosophy beats Religion Points and Dwell beats Electronic Ignition Corona beats Heinken Red Heads beat Blondes Pauln Beatles music beats Stones marketing Mercy BEFORE Justice Contemplating NOTHINGNESS loses to trying to trying to understand SOMETHING Points and Dwell are great on '72 Chevelles and 442s 1 Corona LOSES to 4 Heinikens I live with 3 Blondes. Nolo Contendere. Truth beats Falsehood, therefore A certain Religion beats Philosophy A blond or redhead is better than neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I downloaded this pic from StereoTimes. It depicts the CEC's internal mechanism. The instruction manual with the machine has lots of stuff relating to setup and replay, but there's very little space devoted to technical matters - so I'm not exactly sure how this thing works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 How much did the CEC cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Anyone have a link or a complete model number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Edwinr wrote: "We spend so much money on speakers and amplifiers and tend to cut costs where there is the most potential to maximise the sound from the rest of our system. Remember: "Garbage in. Garbage out"." I agree!!! But the problem is we are at the mercy of the artist, recording eng, producer, and record company on how the CD will sound. Jack Johnson's album In Between Dreams is a very good recorded cd. But so many are not. After I got my La Scalas and then upgraded my system many of my cds sounded really bad. At low volume they sounded okay but if I turned it up they sounded terrible. This may be a good new topic. What software lets you improve the sound quality of bad recordings? I think I'll start it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Parrot, That vinyl rig in your picture... Erik Mandaville has one pretty similar. Erik, Is that TT still in your signature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Is it merely a coincidence that it takes me just as long to clean a record on my vacuum cleaner than it does for me to remove the plastic and that d@#n seal tape from a new CD....or are higher minds at work here? A while back, some friends, my wife and I listened to the same albums on the TT, CDP and iPod - just for kicks. The idea being to compare the different formats but it was not a particularly fair evaluation. My TT setup was a very deliberate and methodical process while the CDP was bought on a whim and the iPod was my wife's contribution to the mix. I matched the volume levels and we played a side each from Muddy Waters' Folk Singer, Dire Straits' Brothers In Arms, Peter Gabriel's So What and Coltranes' Blue Train with each of us taking turns switching through the sources. Because the preamp doesn't have any labeling, I was the only one who knew which source was being played as I was selecting. To avoid confusion, we all jotted down our picks and impressions. The TT easily won for the best sound and image (but then it had better or I'm getting new friends!) and the CDP was for the most part more preferred than the iPod (using the Apple 'Loseless' format) except a couple of folks who preferred listening to Dire Straits through the iPod. Interestingly enough, I was the only one who was able to consistantly discern the different sources (but then it is my setup after all). Most thought they could easily pick out the record by its "ticks and pops" but the records were clean and no excess noise was evident during this session so they were quite surprised. Even the other veteran record guy in the group missed it a few times. The exercise didn't convert anybody to vinyl that wasn't already in the camp but it did demonstrate that in regard to sound quality, CDs were not necessarily the obvious improvement over vinyl as most of my guests had assumed. I also became aware that John Coltrane is not universally appreciated in the jazz world. Have fun, Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 When I went over to Travis's house and listened to his vinyl set up, La Scalas, Mac tube preamp , VRDs, and a very nice turntable(sorry Travis will have to give the name) it did sound very good! The hiss, pops, ticks, and whatever other way you describe vinly were almost completely gone. I only remember 2 or 3 times I that I noticed the pops or clicks over 2 or 3 hours. My best friend use to DJ and he used vinly with a very good set up and it sounded great. My Luxman preamp has phono(MM and MC) so maybe next year I'll try a turntable and some vinyl. I would only have $600 max for the turntable. Both Vinyl and CDs have advantages to them. I have learned to appreciate both. Craig suggested I try Sound Forge for editing bad recorded cds so I will give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 lol, I'm still waiting for someone to demonstrate a TT that sounds better than a $20 walkman...Our little vinyl rig in Hope most definately sounded better than a $20 walkman! If you say so [][][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 In my experience, subwoofer guys are not vinyl guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Paul, The Burmester CDP and Transport also use 'belt drive'. They may have more info out on the Net than CEC re how the drives work. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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