PrestonTom Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 JC, Intriguing ideas as always. What are crossover points and about how low does your bass cabinet go? Good Luck with it! -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 About 80Hz where it is sitting....about 1 foot out of the corner. http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/kpt-mcm-4-t-grand-specifications/ There is some discrepancy...one place says the XO point is 8K and another says 4K. I can prove this later when I pull out the RTA stuff again. I am currenty biamping at 600Hz. I will get an analog parametric EQ later this week. I need to check with Roy on what I might need to do to maybe EQ a little as this network is behind the screen. Right now it sounds pretty good. This room has "cocktail table" height so it works fine. My wife actaully gave me the thumbs up for this......stoked about that. It looks like it all belongs together. My listening position is about 17 feet back and my "ear height" is about at the level of the top of the K402. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Save this and use it from now on and you won't have to explain... [] I could take out the other moldline if you want... Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 Wow. I will! My wife went to storage today...she was very thankful you took that stuff I had sitting in there. I have room now......... uh...for other stuff. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 I have room now......... uh...for other stuff. [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 Here is a curve with equal power amp inputs to the bass bin and the top section (402 and 510). Roy thinks the included passive is XO at 5000Hz and a "behind the screen" included EQ. The active XO is at 500Hz. Looks like my bass bin keeps up pretty well. I have an analog Parametric EQ coming soon and I can get that peak out of the midrange. This bass bin about 1 foot out of the corner is able to consistently go down to ~75 HZ. Who here can appreciate that nose dive at 14K? Work in progress. Not sure where it will end though. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 Same test except that this isn't with the included passive. This passive is an unattenuated ESN5800 (XO 5800Hz). So No passive or active EQ and the active XO at 500Hz. So that nose dive at 14K isn't EQ. Looks like here I'm gonna turn up the input to the bass bin a few dB and then attenuate the mid hump on that CD horn 1K - 2K. So maybe a Hi-shelve at 14K? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 OK. Not sure why I forgot this. The K69 on the 510 needs a shelve at 14K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 OK. Not sure why I forgot this. The K69 on the 510 needs a shelve at 14K. Ah thanks for posting haven't seen this in a while and was looking for it recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Just thought I would post 3 PEQ's added to the last curve with the ESN5800 and bumping up the input to the bass bin. May need to work on 15K plus some more but I can't really hear out there that much anyway. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 JC, That looks pretty good to me bro. The ES5800 looks a little smoother than the other network and that final curve with EQ looks better still. Looks a little hot 1K-2K and a little not 4K-5K. But now you are just fine tuning.....the fun part. Looks like you have it. So how does it sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 They look beautiful!!! What do you think sound wise? (The most important thing of course!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 So, sonically, do you hear any advantage to a tractrix bass vs. exponential? The curves at the bass end certainly don't look any more impressive. Bruce Edgar advocated hyperbolic horns or something for the bass.............or something like it............thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Bruce Edgar advocated hyperbolic horns or something for the bass.............or something like it............thought? Sure, it gets you more low frequency extension, but at the expense of ripple through the passband. Normally I wouldn't care about ripple, but it's the result of standing waves that build up inside the horn. The thing I wonder is whether or not it's minimum phase....if it is, then EQ'ing the horn (with a matching Q filter) will get rid of any ringing/phaseyness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 Claude. What are you looking for? What do you mean "don't look any more impressive". They look fine to me and I'm not trying to go to the very low end with these. Bruce didn't think the tractrix was a good option to go that low with tractrix and there were concerns for "folding". I am not trying either of those. Sound great to me. This isn't an outside curve. So those undulations in the 100-500Hz curve aren't anything I'm concerned with. No different that any other bass horn or bass reflex I've had back there. The Xii KLipsch uses is a 150Hz horn; mine is 100Hz. Not advocating everyone else is missing something by not having tractrix bass in their house. I'm trying to get as much tractrix as possible. Tractrix sounds good to me. The bass horn sub I will get will not be tractrix. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 Mark. I monkeyed with going more -dB on the 1-2K. It sounded less lively... The 14+....I'm gonna need to mess with that some more. Sounds great the way it is.....but it was gonna take a lot of EQ to get that curve up there. I hesitated...and left it. I'm sure you can appreciate that experience. I quit messing with this and addressed some "Hiss" I was getting from the addition of the EQ. I'm using RCA and not XLR to the EQ. That may be it. This is coming straight from the MCD500 DAC....... Just need more time with it. I'm out of town right now. I forgot how much I missed the "big sound" with the K402.....the midrange is nuts. A lot of the vocals are coming out of the bass bin too. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I quit messing with this and addressed some "Hiss" I was getting from the addition of the EQ. I'm using RCA and not XLR to the EQ. That may be it. This is coming straight from the MCD500 DAC....... Hey jc Sorry if I missed it but if you don't mind please list(models) your equipment chain as you have things setup now. You probably already did this but in case If the EQ unit has an overall gain control and you didn't have hiss before maybe reducing the master level would help. At any rate using a dummy shorting plug on the inputs starting from the amps working backwards should be the fastest way to isolate were the hiss is being introduced. Very interesting and as always I enjoy your experiments! mike tn[Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted July 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2009 Just reading to keep up with progress, glad there inside with an official OK. [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I'm a fan of straight axis horns, reserving folded ones for below 200 Hz. You may find some truth in what I say to various degrees as you listent to this setup. Nice job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 Mcintosh MCD500 which is a SACD/CD with DAC digital inputs. Using as a "preamp" Ashly PEQ 572 analog paramentric EQ with high and low shelve options. Ashley XR 2001 XO biamp with a pair of MC250 amps Dual trac 100 bass bin for 500Hz and below K402 and 510 with ESN5800 network for 500Hz and up. K1133 and K69 drivers. I put in and out cheater plugs. Less hiss w/o plugs. I'm sure it is an input gain issue I need to work with. I am very happy with the sound with a PEQ around 600Hz (barely), 1.5K and somewhere out ther 14+. I kinda dialed in the last one for "sound". The high shelve....I couldn't get to sound the way I wanted......will work with again. I am very pleased to have the K402 back in there. My guy building my subs just emailed me to tell me they are done. Hopefully will pickup by the end of the month. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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