Tests: K-69-A driver on Edgar type wood Tractrix horn

[whatever55]

Every horn design will require different EQ for each driver, and all horns/drivers require EQ (whether or not you use it or not in your design).

OK.... what about speakers like Altec Model 19's or VOTT ? They seem to have a simple network. Is it because they don't go 20 - 20k ?

[Chris A]

Is it because they don't go 20 - 20k ?

This is on the right track. Commercial systems are not designed so much for fidelity as they are for SPL: their designs carve up the frequency domain into multiple segments in order to drive SPL to higher levels using multiple drivers for commercial environments like theaters. Within each frequency segment for commercial application, horns and drivers are designed for flat response on axis, but even then, their output must be balanced relative to the other drivers in the system. This balancing of driver output is also EQ. But the price that you pay in terms of sound fidelity is really pretty high to go that route.

If you are willing to "derate" high-quality horn compression drivers, i.e., use them lower SPLs, and use better horns that cover a wider range of frequencies then you can get better, more linear and coherent performance for the home environment. This is the reason why virtually all home Klipsch Jubilee owners use two-way systems instead of three-way Jubs. The use of a single 2" wide-range high-quality driver allows you to exceed specified frequency limits for the drivers on the low end relative to commercial standards since you are not trying to drive them to sustained 120 dB+ SPLs. This is a key point.

There is some physics and math involved in all these arguments but note that the bottom line is this: when you use a horn over a wider frequency range, the design tradeoff is EQ to compensate for hf. This is a design alternative to other approach of chopping up the frequency spectrum using multiple crossovers and multiple drivers for commercial applications. I know which design approach I prefer: my ears tell me so.

Chris

[sootshe]

 Every horn design will require different EQ for each driver, and all horns/drivers require EQ (whether or not you use it or not in your design). 

 

OK.... what about speakers like Altec Model 19's or VOTT ?  They seem to have a simple network. Is it because they don't go 20 - 20k ?

First of all the Altec 19''s & most VOTT will certainly go to 20K.....and you will find that the 19's passive crossover has both low & high end frequency compensation built into it's design. This, plus other factors, is what gives the 19 it's unique sound.

Cheers,

John[]

[Chris A]

First of all the Altec 19''s & most VOTT will certainly go to 20K.....and you will find that the 19's passive crossover has both low & high end frequency compensation built into it's design. This, plus other factors, is what gives the 19 it's unique sound.

John,

Thanks for the clarification. Sometimes I don't see something I write that might not look right upon second reading.

The two-way Jubilee is a design approach that is different from the norm of commercial development, and is one that parallels the development of the original Khorn by PWK that seeks to minimize the number of drivers: it's just another way to achieve a minimalist audio design.

Up until relatively recently, and before the more wide-band Titanium and Beryllium diaphragm compression drivers became widely available, PWK began to use 3-way designs to cover the demands of the recorded music, since the drivers available couldn't span the entire gap (and typical horn designs, too, for that matter). Now that high-quality, wide-band compression drivers are here and more affordable, the basic design principle of the original Khorn has returned to 2-way. That original design philosophy now come full circle.

Chris

[mikebse2a3]

It looks to me like the B&C is a bit cleaner. The difference is very acceptable considering the K-69 costs so much less.

I was looking at these test closer and thought it would interest some if we calculated the IM db results into percentage of distortion to put in proper perspective the differences between these two drivers revealed by these test.

B&C DCM50

3950Hz = -36db = 1.584%

4850HZ = -41.5db = 0.841%

K69-A
3950Hz = -48db = 0.398%
4850Hz = -32.5db = 2.371%

Could anyone hear the difference of approximately 1.5% distortion at these db levels? Not likely IMHO

Basically the K69-A wins at 3950Hz and the B&C DCM50 at 4850Hz but in reality there is no real significant difference shown by this test
that would reveal one driver as better than the other.

mike tn

[whatever55]

Every horn design will require different EQ for each driver, and all horns/drivers require EQ (whether or not you use it or not in your design).

OK.... what about speakers like Altec Model 19's or VOTT ? They seem to have a simple network. Is it because they don't go 20 - 20k ?

First of all the Altec 19''s & most VOTT will certainly go to 20K.....and you will find that the 19's passive crossover has both low & high end frequency compensation built into it's design. This, plus other factors, is what gives the 19 it's unique sound. Cheers, John

The compensation is minor.. not like what is required by the 402 K69 right ?

So I guess what I am looking for is some combiation that would require very little compensation.

[cjgeraci]

Radian rocks. Nice driver choice Carl.

Thanks bud, I appreciate it. I had never heard Radian drivers before so these were a blind buy for me. Based on reputation and positive reviews, I decided to try the 850s. Boy are they massive. As you know, I've done the titanium and phenolic thing and instead, my ears seem to really prefer those aluminum drivers (and these also have the mylar surrounds). Detailed at all volumes yet they do not pin your ears back at high spls.

Heaven for me at least.

Carl.

[cjgeraci]

Sorry to hi-jack this thread, but can you tell me where you cross the 902's at & what crossover you are using?

I currently cross my 902s over at 800 hz to the VOTTs. I use an active crossover, a vintage analog Nikko, which is a really clean, low-distortion unit.

Back in the day, I crossed the 902s over at 500 hz when I ran straight Khorns, and they did fine.

Carl.

[ClaudeJ1]

Still dealing with smaller horns and the K69 and similar drivers.

I've been talking about better substitute horns, for less cost. It looked as if the original horn was having trouble with the K-69A (2") driver.

Chris, I'm with you 100%. A better horn/driver combo for less cost would be perfect. Once issue that keeps causing the most problems is how low do you need the mid to go? You are fortunate to be able to work with a Jubilee bass bin if you ever decided to go with a smaller horn. However, those with a Khorn bass bin have a much more difficult task. I eventually plan on going to a Jubilee bass bin or some bass bin that can go higher than 400Hz satisfactorily. That greatly simplifies driver and horn selection.

One word..........midbass horn. Trust me, I tried everything else.

[Deang]

Good info on the last few pages, some bad info too though. Well, it's not really bad, I just don't agree with it, which of course makes it bad.

Since I seem to be agitating everyone these days, why stop now? Does anyone see the irony in PK wanting a bass bin that goes higher than the Klipschorn, and now that we have one -- it's being crossed at just over 400Hz.

[Chris A]

Does anyone see the irony in PK wanting a bass bin that goes higher than the Klipschorn, and now that we have one -- it's being crossed at just over 400Hz.

Reminds me of a C&W tune that goes something like this: [8] "...all the good things in life we get for all the wrong reasons..." [8]

Do you remember a song like that from a few years back?

[8-)]

[Chris A]

So I guess what I am looking for is some combination that would require very little compensation.

My TAD 4002s seem to require the least amount of compensation that I've seen, regardless of horn type. [:-*]

Chris

[whatever55]

DeanG:

Does anyone see the irony in PK wanting a bass bin that goes higher than the Klipschorn, and now that we have one -- it's being crossed at just over 400Hz.

OK so how far up will the Jub bass bin go .... and still sound good.

[ClaudeJ1]

Does anyone see the irony in PK wanting a bass bin that goes higher than the Klipschorn, and now that we have one -- it's being crossed at just over 400Hz.

Reminds me of a C&W tune that goes something like this: "...all the good things in life we get for all the wrong reasons..."

Do you remember a song like that from a few years back?

Actually, the Jubilee has a greater amount of bass energy in where most of the musicpower is: below 500 Hz (between 40 and 120 hz. too) AND it is the optimum xover point matching to the polars of a good 90 degree horn. But one does have the option of going to 800 Hz. if need be in a passive 2-way sytem with a non-CD horn design.

Having bandwitdth beyond the edges of the Xover is a good thing for any transducer because nothing get "strained" in the area of interest. While the Khorn barely makes it to 400, the Jube barely makes it to 1200. So, overall, following the same corer cubic footage displacement, it's a much better horn design all around.........and it took 50 years for PWK and Roy Delgado to improve upon the original Khorn (a Jubilee is still a Khorn). It also has lower distortion and potentially higher output since two 12" motors has more cone area and voice coil power handling than a the venerable K-33.

I still prefer straight axis horns for all frequencies above 80 Hz., but in my case, 180 Hz. is a reasonable compromise for a midbass/lower midrange horn, which blows away any setup I ever heard or owned (quite a few). The fewer the folds, the clearer the sound. If you must fold a horn, do it at the lowest frequency possible, and with the fewest number of folds. This is why so many horn subs get a away with their "acoustic labyrinth" and why I much prefer the greater clarity sound of a 2-fold W bin like the Klipsch MWM over a 3-fold Khorn.

[DrWho]

OK so how far up will the Jub bass bin go .... and still sound good.

Depends on how you define "good".

The Jub is good to about 1kHz on-axis, but at the expense of some clover-leafing in the polars. Whether or not this is a bad thing is gonna depend a lot on the acoustics of your room.

The Khorn does the same thing, but it starts at a lower frequency. I think the Khorn should really be crossed even lower, but then the midrange horn becomes impractical. I think it could be said that crossing the Jub at 800Hz would be like crossing the Khorn at 400Hz.

[seti]

OK so how far up will the Jub bass bin go .... and still sound good.

Depends on how you define "good".

The Jub is good to about 1kHz on-axis, but at the expense of some clover-leafing in the polars. Whether or not this is a bad thing is gonna depend a lot on the acoustics of your room.

The Khorn does the same thing, but it starts at a lower frequency. I think the Khorn should really be crossed even lower, but then the midrange horn becomes impractical. I think it could be said that crossing the Jub at 800Hz would be like crossing the Khorn at 400Hz.

I've asked several bass horn builders / engineers why not cross higher if the bass horn can perform that high. The answer has consistantly been that female vocals or vocals don't sound good when crossed higher than 600hz. I was wanting to cross the Jubilee higher so I could experiment with a wider range of horns and drivers but after getting this answer I decided to stick with PWK's crossover point of 600hz. I'd like to hear a Jubilee with a steep crossover close to 1khz just to experience what they are talking about.

[Marvel]

While the Khorn barely makes it to 400...

I'm glad you brought this up. Wasn't it Bruce Edgar who showed how sloppy the upper bass was on the khorn? Crossing lower would be better, but that means one of those mid bass horns needs to go before your compression driver and horn. [*-)]

[greg928gts]

I find the mid-bass of a stock Khorn, between 160Hz and 400Hz to be annoying. But I've found a way to smooth it out and improve the sound significantly without having to complicate my electronics. I'm working on it.

Then again, I like crossing my Jubilees lower than 400Hz too! I just don't really like the sound of mid-bass coming from the same bass bin that is producing deep bass. This goes for all the bass bins I own, and even my Cornwalls, which I think sound better when the woofer is crossed lower than stock.

I think a mid-bass horn is a great solution, but not for my Khorns in my living room (WAF). It would have to be a whole new three-way design.

Claude - what frequency range are you using for your mid-bass horns?

Greg

[ClaudeJ1]

While the Khorn barely makes it to 400...

I'm glad you brought this up. Wasn't it Bruce Edgar who showed how sloppy the upper bass was on the khorn? Crossing lower would be better, but that means one of those mid bass horns needs to go before your compression driver and horn.

Yes, even the MWMs bin, while much better then the Khorn at the upper end is still best crossed at 300 or below. I use a midbass crossed at 180 and it makes all the difference in the world. You would still be amazed at how much music is missing when you turn off the MWM's contribution below 180 Hz.though.

The clarity of having a straight axix midbass (actually should be called lower midrange IMHO) on female or male vocals, piano, saxophone, guitar, drums, etc. the added realism is simply amazing.......yet there are very few people who are going after a midbass solution, which blows away any of this 4-5-600 Hz. stuff. Too bad.

[ClaudeJ1]

I find the mid-bass of a stock Khorn, between 160Hz and 400Hz to be annoying. But I've found a way to smooth it out and improve the sound significantly without having to complicate my electronics. I'm working on it.

Then again, I like crossing my Jubilees lower than 400Hz too! I just don't really like the sound of mid-bass coming from the same bass bin that is producing deep bass. This goes for all the bass bins I own, and even my Cornwalls, which I think sound better when the woofer is crossed lower than stock.

I think a mid-bass horn is a great solution, but not for my Khorns in my living room (WAF). It would have to be a whole new three-way design.

Claude - what frequency range are you using for your mid-bass horns?

Greg

Well Greg, I"m glad you agree with my own assesments here. I'm using the Peavey MB-1 from 180 to 1 Khz.and it's the single best thing I have ever done to improve my front channels in 33 years.You can sometimes find these things for dirt cheap on Craigslist, but you have to drive to get them. The shipping is atrocious. I had an extra set of them, which I sold to Fyrpwr on this board along with another MWM "stack."