mark1101 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Well thanks for letting me know because I really wasn't sure. I haven't heard one of those yet. But I'd like to. Anyhow.................now you have my opinion on the chip amps. They are pretty much toys in my opinion. Like I said, somewhere on here is a review with more opinions. Has anyone reviewed the amps being discussed in this thread and compared them to anything the people on the board have been known to use? Just wondering about any practical comparisons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I think their are really a couple (or maybe more) groups of these digital or "chip" amps out there. I think the OP may actualy be talking about a PWM switching amp like the little "Trends" and "T-amps". Isn't there also a true full digital amp made by Yamaha or maybe others by now? That would be different than the little chip amps mentioned above. I gave one of the Trends a try once with my Peach preamp and compared to set of VRD tube amps. The little chip amp sounded pretty good and somewhere on this board is a review as that Trends chip amp was getting sent around to members for review. So..............I have to heavily disagree with the OP on the fact that these little chip amps are the giant killers as described. No way, not quite. YES, they sound very good for the few bucks they cost, but the one I tested had no balls whatsoever compared to a 60 watt set of mono tube amps. When I turned that little amp up past a certain point it completely distorted and fell apart. It was by no means any comparison to my 60 watt VRD tube amps. Not anywhere near the same class of power, nor sound quality. Like I said, I give it credit for how good it did sound for the money. .....................but let's not get carried away with how good. They have very little driving power and will distort terribly. Don't sell your McIntosh stuff yet guys. The chip amps still need a little more work. Yamaha does (or did) make the MX-D1 Class D power amplifier. I'm using a pair of them to bi-amp my JubScalas. The MX-D1 is a "statement product", meant to show what the company can do, given a chance to work without mid-fi price restraints, and it's pretty impressive, based not only on my experience, but reviews from other users and at least one magazine. Yamaha calls it a digital amp, but Class D is a variety of analogue amp according to most people. The sound is definitely not cold and "digital". It's very revealing of low-level detail, and has been described as sounding "tubey". I don't know about that part, but the resolution of very soft sounds is definitely audible to me, along with the very ample headroom, as you'd expect from a 500Wpc amp. Sub-$100 chip amps may sound good within their limits, but it's hard to imagine them equalling the performance of a high-end amp that uses current technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Rivernuggets or anyone else who might be interested? if you are ever up in the twin cities area? Like many, I have tube amps, solid states and a chip amp. I'll buy the lobsters you bring your ears Lobsters? Seriously ?........I live in the Twin Cities.......10 miles west of Downtown Minneapolis......I have lots of SET amps 45, 2A3, 300B, ....As well as loads of Solid State, A chip amp, Push Pull etc. Where are you at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I bought one those Sonic Impact T-amps back when I built my 2A3 stereo SET amplifier. Guess which one broke first... If they get one of those digi-amps to emulate a 45 or 2A3, and have enough deep punchy bass to make one poop themselves, then I'm in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivernuggets Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Just wondering about any practical comparisons. Here are many glowing opinions but I don't remember reading about direct comparisons. I'll try to find some other threads in the archives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 I'll try to find some other threads in the archives. Here's a pile of 'em from Amazon regarding the XR-55: http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-SA-XR55S-Theater-Receiver-Silver/product-reviews/B0009E1YPW/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 the XR-57: http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-SA-XR57K-Digital-Theater-Receiver/product-reviews/B000FZ1X1K/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_2?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&pageNumber=2 ...and the elusive XR-700 http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-SA-XR700-Receiver-7-1-Channel/product-reviews/B000JNHP74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juniper8 Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Juniper, Maybe it's the ultra-low noise floor that might take a bit getting used to? There's no precursor when the sound is about to tear the listener a new ear hole. Just dead silence...even wide open with 20-30V on deck.The lower the room's ambient level, the more pronounced the contrast. Another big difference being the amps that run exclusively on a digital signal (ie. no analog front end). It's those types that seem to have that luscious, creamy midrange sound. If it has RCA's (not SPDIF) going into it coming from a computer or CD player (no matter how fancy), all I've ever experienced was grit. Quiet Hollow I did run it in the digital domain. And I am not saying I dont like chip amps. I am sure they are the future for many companies. I have had 2 Pany units and they do sound very good and for the cost they are scary. Top to bottom they are very balanced with almost an abscence of grain. I prefered them vastly to many solid state units costing 10X's the cost of these units. Cut- Throat I sent you a PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juniper8 Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 As far as reveiws of these amps, the most striking I have found is of a gentleman who has spent over 250,000 looking for amps and preamps and a sa-xr 45 was his favorite amp. This guy may be a little off, but these amps are suprising... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I have gone the Digital / Class D route since I can't stand heating up the house in summer when it is well over 100 degrees outside. What I have found is the Panasonic SA-XR70 is a very clean receiver in it's price range and maybe even double it. When you listen to it you can understand why some people say Digital may be missing soul. It is fairly thin sounding though clear. It will definitely be a personal preference if you like this type of sound along with the fact that in some systems it will sound great so system synergy matters significantly. My other configuration of a Cambridge Audio 840e with Bel Canto Ref-1000 (IcePower) Amps make up for all the shortcomings of the Pani but provide bass to die for with fantastic resolution. For more than 5 times the price of the Pani, the mono's should. Some consider these amps to have no soul either though they were on Stereophile's Class A list (if that means anything) but I find with other Class D amps, system matching is everything. They sound excellent with 90% (not 100%) of my speakers. Depending on the setup and speakers, Class D and/or Digital amps are likely a love'm or leave'm reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 They sound great to my ear as wel...I haven't decided that they are the best I have ever heard but I have one playing through Chorus IIs and another doing a three speaker smaller Home theater...it bested my Outlaw 1050... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 When you listen to it you can understand why some people say Digital may be missing soul. I've heard this, but as I find that my own recordings and the best of the commercial stuff lacks nothing, including soul, I tend to wonder if they aren't a lot like K'horns...mercilessly accurate. OTOH, they never have that hard, clinical sound that SS has. Sort of SS accuracy with just a TOUCH of tube... Of course, everyone's milage around here varies. I'm certainly happy that I found a technology I didn't need to throw money at in big bags to be satisfied. I still have my VT preamp and amp, and love them. However, they wear and the Panys don't, so I save them for guests and when the mood strikes. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 I believe one of the most important facets of this technology is that it brings 5-star sound into the home of the person who would typically be ignorant. I certainly was. When we can get jaw-dropping sound for a few hundred bucks, instead of several thousand, it is simply a matter of time when more people are going to be exposed to and possibly become interested in good sound reproduction. It's a multiplier, so to speak. First time I heard a chip amp, I didn't know what I was listening to. It was 2003, I was in my early 20's, and my neighbor was from Germany. I had medium-sized Yamaha powered component 5.1 system and he had a some unsuspecting credit card thin, HTIB, Bose-cubie looking thing. During the hot summers, the group of us would frequently host pool parties. One day he opened his door, beers in hand, spinning some 4/4 euro-techno stuff...and I couldn't help but take notice that his sound system was blasting something fierce! I strolled over to fetch some drinks from his fridge and paused briefly to check out his stereo. It looked like a chrome DVD player...I thought, "Just what the heck is this? Man, if he had some bigger speakers, this thing would eat my system alive." Fortunately, it only had the 3" cube speakers and powered sub that came with it. Didn't think anything more of it at the time really. My system was setup ideally and could get a heck of a lot louder, but I will never forget how cleanly his system could play, even under full duress. He wasn't the type to baby his system either. It never crossed my mind at that time, that I had just heard something state of the art. Six years later, I learned that it was an SA-XR10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Not to rain on any parades but the real key here is that there are better Class D amplifiers out there. The Panasonic is good but imagine when a lot of this new technology trickles down such as the D3, IcePower, and NAD's technologies. $500 will really buy something great. The unfortunate part is that manufacturers will figure it out and charge you thousands for a pretty box that is mostly empty. The haven't gone there in masses because there is still a stigma attached to Class D. Luckily it will probably take a while before people really admit to the quality so enjoy the low prices for now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 The Pioneer Elite receivers use ICE and sound incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I was swayed to digital amps when a friend gave me a T-amp many moons ago. I still have that amp and use it as a carry around to try out speakers in the field. It can amaze some folks - I just hook up my iPhone and a lot of music comes out of that tiny box. I was at a local audio shop and hooked it up to an old pair of Tannoy Windsors with 15" Gold monitors. You would imagine that the fellas at the shop had seen it all but I must've had 5 or 6 guys standing around commenting on how good the sound was and one offered to buy the amp off me to use in the field as well. I suggested he take $100 off the speaks and we'd have a deal but the boss said 'no'. Anyway, I've since had several digital amp types in my system, including Tripath, Gainclone and ICE. Aside from the T-amp and a couple of Panasonics, the first real amp I tried that had merit was a DIY Hypex 200w/ch with big power supplies and massive capacitance. It sounded very nice and quiet but in the end a bit sterile and unmoving. That amp, even back then cost over $800 to build and I realized that while these were overachievers compared to similarly priced SS and tube amps, they weren't bargains. I also tried ICE and Gainclone amps that cost more but had similar results though the Gainclone came very close to what I was hoping for. In my experience, there's a lot to like about digital amps and there are definite benefits to be had - bass control, lots of detail, low noise and distortion and very efficient to name a few. For those reasons, I ended up keeping the Gainclones and using them to drive the bass bins in a 2-way setup and in that application, they better anything else I've tried. But my general impression of digital amps is that the presentation is a bit sterile and lacks the imaging and involvement of a decent SET amp in my system as well as a couple of OTL and Push/Pull amps I've listened to. I'll keep looking around but perhaps it'll take a few more years before the technology trickles down to make digital amps a better sounding and cheaper alternative to quality tube and SS amps...just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Bought it for 50 bucks, sunk another 150 bucks into parts, and a bunch of time. And it's not much bigger than a digital (class D?) amplifier. Single-ended 6BQ5 goodness, with a touch of feedback. It sounds rather excellent with my '83 Cornwalls to my ears. Tonally balanced. Involving. It'll last a long, long time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Nice looking amp Mike. I still like the sound of Tripath, but in limited applications. For example, I think they're excellent for low volume listening, where I think the sound is very involving. I pushed my Jubilees with one for a long time when I was forced into late night listening, and I really enjoyed it. Seriously though, that's all I would use one for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Nice looking amp Mike. I still like the sound of Tripath, but in limited applications. For example, I think they're excellent for low volume listening, where I think the sound is very involving. I pushed my Jubilees with one for a long time when I was forced into late night listening, and I really enjoyed it. Seriously though, that's all I would use one for. Thanks, Dean. I dunno...I listened to homebrew SS 25 watt Class A amplifier with Klipschorns a few months ago and was blown away. Never heard Khorns sound like that. They didn't really sound like Khorns...they sounded like modern speakers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I dunno...I listened to homebrew SS 25 watt Class A amplifier with Klipschorns a few months ago and was blown away. Never heard Khorns sound like that. They didn't really sound like Khorns...they sounded like modern speakers... Thanks for the warning! [] Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I believe one of the most important facets of this technology is that it brings 5-star sound into the home of the person who would typically be ignorant. I certainly was. IMHO, you hit the bullseye. I suspect many of the same criticisms would be used against them if they were in the $tereophile Class A components list. However, because anyone can afford one, it's a look down the nose. I've always considered myself fortunate that I spent most of my "audiophile" lifw as an isolated interest in the pre-internet world. I didn't hear about all these subtle differences in wires, capacitors, tubes, etc until I'd already simply defined "accurate" as what I was after. What little "finesse" I've developed is limited to "tubes are accurate and smooth, SS is accurate and clinical, class D (the newcomer to this) is accurate with a hint of smooth." But the main thing is it's CHEAP! I suppose it helps that I've always been more interested in peoples suprise at how LITTLE I have in my system after hearing it than how much... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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