Disappointed with my RF-7s....

[mattSER]

This is the first time I've actually experienced the notorious Klipsch harshness and listening fatigue.

Just curious how loud are you listening to them when you get ear fatigue? When I was comparing my RF-7 to my previous RF-83, I made a comment that I could easily see how at loud volume, one could get ear fatigue. Not so with the RF-83's because they were very smooth sounding, even at extreme volumes. The Onkyo might not be your problem, it's part of the characteristic of the RF-7's.

Thanks for the links, Youthman. I listen relatively loudly. Anywhere from 50-70% on the onkyo. I'm guessing somewhere in the mid 80s db range for extended periods and upwards of 95-105 for shorter lengths.

I pretty much just go by OSHA regulations for hearing safety.

I did notice that when I had my RF-82s, even though I didn't care much for the sound they produced, I could play them louder with less harshness.

[tnr]

Passive or fool's bi-amping is for the most part a waste of time.  If the room or sound is a problem, why use the speakers in pure direct?  Unless a room is perfect take advantage and use some EQ.  That is what it is there for.

I was suggesting pure direct simply as an a/b comparison with his 35's and a mode to use as a constant.  He was happy with his 35's.

[Youthman]

I'm guessing somewhere in the mid 80s db range for extended periods and upwards of 95-105 for shorter lengths.

I believe 105db on RF-7's is at the threshold of melting your ear drums. 

[vnzbd]

Well I can not add anything to the RF discussion as I have owned a pair I can comment on the 7 vs 35 issue. If you just end up enjoying the 35's more don't get caught up in thinking that you are settling for a lesser speaker. Go with what makes you happy.

 

I went through the I need bigger and better for several years but keep coming back to the KLF 10's. Most prefer the 20's and 30's, I am certainly in the minority with my opinion. For me it was also a harshness issue and for me the better balanced speaker won out. 

[Matthews]

Passive or fool's bi-amping is for the most part a waste of time.

 

Passive bi-amping will yield very favorable results if done properly, with the right amplifiers.  Certainly NOT a waste of time!!! 

[mattSER]

 

When a piece of gear doesn't add the so desired "warmth" often mentioned, some consider that not musical.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'm certainly not talking about "warmth" in this context. I'm talking about grit.

 

Kinda hard to describe, but it's a subtle type of "hash" that's clearly audible in any A/B gain stage compared to the chip amps of the last 10 years or so.

 

But in all truth, physical setup could also be at play. Are the speakers set using the correct amount of toe in? What's changed in the room lately? Lot's of factors really.

 

 

I've pretty much ruled out the room as being the problem. The RF-7s are in the exact spot that my 35s were, and very carefully toed-in and positioned over 3 days time. I'm quite the perfectionist about this kinda stuff.

[willland]

The RF-7s are in the exact spot that my 35s were, and very carefully toed-in and positioned over 3 days time. I'm quite the perfectionist about this kinda stuff.

 

 

If they are toed in shooting directly at your ears, try toeing out just enough to shoot a few inches behind the ears.  Off axis may help some for now.

 

Bill

[Tremors]

This is the first time I've actually experienced the notorious Klipsch harshness and listening fatigue.

Just curious how loud are you listening to them when you get ear fatigue? When I was comparing my RF-7 to my previous RF-83, I made a comment that I could easily see how at loud volume, one could get ear fatigue. Not so with the RF-83's because they were very smooth sounding, even at extreme volumes. The Onkyo might not be your problem, it's part of the characteristic of the RF-7's.

I have been following this thread quite intently as I and Mattser have the same Onkyo 3008 running 7's. I have only really noticed ear fatigue on rare occasion where the system is being ran at very high db's for extended periods of time (read:parties), but isn't that kind of too be expected? If I weren't experiencing some fatigue from high volume, after lengthy listening, I'd begin to question my own hearing going out.

That said, my previous receiver was also an Onkyo TX-NR609, much less ability but with apparently the same inherent sound profile. I didn't notice any harshness increase when upgrading, despite than listening at higher volumes more frequently just because I had the power, I also added the XPA-5 at the same time. My 3008 does very little work output wise, relegated to powering just the rears in an 7.2, or rears and fronts heights when I experimented with 9.2.

I've been experiencing weird HDCP playback issues lately that I think may be the result of old firmware on the 3008. Haven't nailed it down yet, but I intend on swapping in an Emotiva UMC-1 at some point just to check if the problem persists.

Overall I feel that the 3008 has been fantastic for me. The Audyssey XT-32 is fantastic room correction software, the wattage output is solid, build quality is great, UI is very intuitive. Now, had I spent $2500 I'm not sure that I'd have all of the same feelings, particularly with this handshake issue arising. However, at a used market price anywhere between $900-1200 when I bought it, it provided a great value IMO.

Alas, much like anything else in life, personal preferences can play the single biggest role with ones happiness with what they own.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Tremors

[mattSER]

 

I'm guessing somewhere in the mid 80s db range for extended periods and upwards of 95-105 for shorter lengths.

I believe 105db on RF-7's is at the threshold of melting your ear drums. 

 

 

Exactly why I'm thinking these may not be the speakers for me.

 

 

 

HOWEVER, I've just connected the Emotiva to the Onkyo's pre-outs and and driving the horns with it at about 80% gain and it sounds MUCH BETTER so far!!

 

I'm getting a tiny bit more detail and separation, but the harshness is nearly completely eliminated!

 

I'm going to play with the gain on the Emo for a little while and make sure I'm not just fooling myself, but I think I've made the right move so far!

[mattSER]

 

The RF-7s are in the exact spot that my 35s were, and very carefully toed-in and positioned over 3 days time. I'm quite the perfectionist about this kinda stuff.

 

 

If they are toed in shooting directly at your ears, try toeing out just enough to shoot a few inches behind the ears.  Off axis may help some for now.

 

Bill

 

 

This is pretty much a last resort for me. I find the soundstage only really opens up when aimed directly at me and I'd rather kill the problem from the source instead of sidestepping it.

[The History Kid]

 

 

 

driving them with an Onkyo...not good.

 

 

QFT

 

 

I had to google that

 

 

 

 

Me too, and I'm pretty sure I'm the youngest one here

 

I'm picking up an Emotiva later today. I'll try that out before making a decision on the mod.

 

Thanks for your help, guys. I'll be back later.

 

It saddens me that the consensus on my Onkyo is so negative, but it should work well as a pre-amp, right?

 

 

I'd take bets that you're only second youngest...and no, I didn't have to google it. lol

[mattSER]

Okay, after double checking, I have to say that I'm pretty happy with the bi-amping. The adjustable gain on the Emo is doing wonders for the harshness and the Onkyo is still delivering the deep, heavy power I wanted for the woofers.

 

I think I'm just going to spend the rest of the night playing with it and making sure I'm not losing anything by reducing power to the horns.

 

I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks for everything!

[tnr]

   Good Man...keep tinkering!

[jacksonbart]

Trust your ears.  You don't need to make us happy, just yourself. 

[moray james]

Ivor T. at Linn said it best decades ago, the three most important things in your stereo system are the source the source and the source. The more you experiment the more you will learn,it is time well spent. Best regards Moray James.

[Tremors]

Trust your ears.  You don't need to make us happy, just yourself.

I like that

[mattSER]

UPDATE:

 

After spending all night and half of today tinkering, I've come to a somber conclusion.......  the problem IS the Onkyo.

 

It took me less than 24hrs to decide that I'm putting the 3008 up for sale and ordering an Emotiva XDA-2 dac/pre-amp.

I'm not much of a movie guy, so I'm heading down the Emotiva 2-channel route.

 

Sorry, Onkyo....and Bill and Tremors.  

[Youthman]

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/153708-fs-cambridge-audio-azur-540a-integrated-200ship/#entry1801040

[wvu80]

UPDATE:

 

After spending all night and half of today tinkering, I've come to a somber conclusion.......  the problem IS the Onkyo.

 

It took me less than 24hrs to decide that I'm putting the 3008 up for sale and ordering an Emotiva XDA-2 dac/pre-amp.

I'm not much of a movie guy, so I'm heading down the Emotiva 2-channel route.

 

Sorry, Onkyo....and Bill and Tremors.  

 

I was thinking about your harshness problem when I came up on your conclusions about the Onk.  None of us here would try to defer you from buying new stuff, since it's what we all want to do.      However, I had a question and maybe a comment. (I have the Onk 717).

 

Question:  Are you doing all your listening in Direct Mode?  I'm guessing you have tried many of the Onk's listening modes, but there is no question my Onk is the most harsh in Direct Mode, but it's also the most "punchy" mode.

 

Comment:  I like what you have discovered about bi-amping.  I have considered doing the same thing, but I keep being pretty happy with a single AVR.  Are you sure it is the Onk that is the problem, or is it the Emo amp that has enabled you to attenuate the harshness?  To my way of thinking, that would make it a speaker harshness problem, and not an amp harshness problem.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited November 15, 2014 by wvu80

[derrickdj1]

Cutting 2-3 db off 2000 Hz will also help to tame the harshness.  I don't think you have a feature like Pioneer MCACC where you can EQ the system with a shorter time interval

This will slightly change the bass / trebel balance at the MLP.  This is related to reverb issues and is a common problem.

Edited November 15, 2014 by derrickdj1