LarryC Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) I am now in love with these RF-7s. The Emotiva made all the difference in the world. It's clear to me now that the Onkyo was designed for multi-channel use and I'm sure it serves its intended purpose very well. I've simply been using the wrong tool for the job. The last time I was at Klipsch in Indy, I was very disappointed in the sound of music over the Integra pre-pro in Klipsch HQ's Palladium demo HT setup. I was told the Integra was an Onkyo product. The Palladiums were previously driven by Aragon electronics, which sounded magnificent. The Integra setup badly needed re-thinking and re-equipping. Edited November 16, 2014 by LarryC 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) No explanation of cause other than "someone said so" after a demo? In my experience, "AVP/AVR sound quality issues" are typically loudspeaker, placement and room issues in disguise. I'd look for causes elsewhere - like looking at actual measurements, etc. before blaming the electronics. A very small amount of EQ in the right places usually produces "unexplained miracles". But that's just me... Chris Edited November 16, 2014 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattSER Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 A gentleman just walked out of my house with the Onkyo and as I sit here listening to the Emo, I don't regret it one bit! Chris, I'm very anti-equalization, but I did try every tool the Onkyo offers to try and fix the problem. I first tried Audyssey(three times!) and ended up with a slightly smoother sound(BBC dip?) but it was accompanied by an overall hollow "tube" sound. And I don't mean like a tube amp. Then, a few days later I rearranged my room and tried Audyssey again. This time, the harshness was INCREASED! The bottom-end also fell out a bit. I tried over and over with slightly different toe-in/out and different positions for the mic. I also tried a few times with the minimum "3 measurement positions" in the same exact spot. I must be crazy, because Audyssey did not work very well for me with my 35s either. I consider myself a very technically competent person and I love tinkering and experimenting, but Audyssey did NOT work at all for 2-channel. I then tried manual equalization by lowering the 2500hz range by 3db. It had very little effect. I tried lowering it further to -6db and it mostly just seemed to pull the vocals away from me. I then tried lowering the next freq(6300hz i think it was?) by 3db and merely started losing high-end detail. Now, I have a tiny, affordable Emotiva amp, the speakers are still in my preferred position and I spent all last night marveling at the sound I was hearing. Even naturally harsh music types, such as metal, were completely balanced and pleasing. It's a good thing it was Saturday, because I went waaayy past my usual music curfew. I can confidently say that the Onkyo was the entirety of the problem. I am putting full blame on the electronics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Picture? This isn't it, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted November 16, 2014 Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2014 Um, I don't thinks those look like RF-7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattSER Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) Well, yes, that picture is mine, but kinda old now. That was taken right after I purchased the 3008. Those are my 35s flanked by 82s and RB-35s sitting on top. I've since sold the RBs and 82s. .....and the Onkyo Edited November 16, 2014 by mattSER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I won't ask any more questions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted November 16, 2014 Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2014 Schu, on 16 Nov 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:You use optical out for sound as opposed to hdmi? Sorry just seen this Yes the AVR does not have HDMI, it's also connected with the 6 channel input. It rarely get's used, it's the only reason it hasn't been replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 You certainly wont have to convince me that electronics can make all the difference in the world. I don't know how far you been into avr vs prepro and do they all sound the same discussions but they can last years and are a waste of time.I just wanted to point out the Onkyo may be part of the issue cause I know 7s can be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Ic... ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) You certainly wont have to convince me that electronics can make all the difference in the world. I don't know how far you been into avr vs prepro and do they all sound the same discussions but they can last years and are a waste of time.I just wanted to point out the Onkyo may be part of the issue cause I know 7s can be great. This has been a good discussion with Matt's ears being the primary testing instrument, and of course he put in the LARGE amount of time it takes to evaluate the variables. The issues are the well known "harshness" associated with the RF-7, and the equally well known harshness the Onk products are thought to have when used with Klipsch products, and of course I am generalizing here. Matt of course trusted his ears and made his choices. From a theoretical point of view, I would like to have known what Matt would have concluded if the resistor mod had been done to his RF-7's, and paired up with his Onk. Now we will never know. Edited November 16, 2014 by wvu80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Bi-amping will not help. STRONGLY disagree!!! Bi-amped my seven's with much success. Mine too were harsh and caused fatigue. Rotel 50 wpc amp to the horns (HF) and 250 wpc Yamaha to the drivers (LF). Smooth as butter If that's the case, a 2 dollar resistor would still be a much cheaper solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Electronics make ALL the difference. If this were not true than everyone could just buy the cheapest junk from Wal-mart??? I mean, why wouldn't you? I remember the first time I plugged in a Sunfire processor (had been using receivers as pre's up until then) I ran over to my sub to turn it down only to realize it wasn't even playing. The bass from my main speakers was so much more pronounced as was everything else. The difference was incredible. I have not used a Receiver as pre since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Electronics make ALL the difference. Probably not as much as the source, the speakers or the room but they certainly are an important link. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 "AVP/AVR sound quality issues" are typically loudspeaker, placement and room issues in disguise. I'd look for causes elsewhere - like looking at actual measurements, etc. before blaming the electronics. A very small amount of EQ in the right places usually produces "unexplained miracles". The poorer sound from the Integra pre-pro in Indy had nothing to do with room or placement issues, or frequency response curves, particularly given that nothing else apparently had changed since replacing the Aragon. Better electronics results in a purer, more accurate sound quality, and I don't know how you get at that consistently with measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) The poorer sound from the Integra pre-pro in Indy had nothing to do with room or placement issues, or frequency response curves, particularly given that nothing else apparently had changed since replacing the Aragon. Better electronics results in a purer, more accurate sound quality, and I don't know how you get at that consistently with measurements. Which model of Integra were you using, and how was it set up? I've never heard a bad sounding Integra/Onkyo high-end AVP unless it was set up quite poorly--which is an easy thing to do if you are not familiar with them and haven't spent a little time using them to understand how to set them up properly. It sounds as if your experience might have been plagued by bad calibration using Audyssey - which can result in a very poor sound indeed. Otherwise, they are extremely transparent IMHE. Chris Edited November 17, 2014 by Chris A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugger Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 The room is carpeted and pretty "warm" overall. I don't think the room is much of a problem. I think the issue I'm having now is the fact the I was really happy with my RF-35s and 25s, but now with these RF-7s I'm opening up a whole new road that I don't think I can really afford to travel. And I was going to sell my 35s and 25s to cover the purchase of the 7s, but now I'm wondering if I'm going to be better off selling the 7s because they are easily worth more than the other two pairs. I have a few months to make a decision, so I'm just thinking out loud here. :-) And Fish, I totally get what you're saying, but I'm happy listening to the mechanics by day and the music at night. Remember, I'm in a state where "extreme listening enjoyment" is legal. If you do end up selling the RF7s please think of me first. You did a good job getting to the seller before I could. I would love to put these next to my other RF7s. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 If you do end up selling the RF7s please think of me first. You did a good job getting to the seller before I could. I would love to put these next to my other RF7s. Thanks. Why would you put RF-7's beside other RF-7's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugger Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Use them as big *** wides, build a bigger front stage since I prefer extended stereo music or use them as center channels. Lots to play around with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Use them as big *** wides, build a bigger front stage since I prefer extended stereo music or use them as center channels. Lots to play around with. Lots to f&*k up too. Unless you are doing it for the novelty and "watch this Clem" effect, it's pretty lame. Nice gimmick, but has nothing to do with accurately reproducing natural sound. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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