Why so many NJ teachers are retiring......

[mangofirst]

"Now the mom wonders if her daughters will believe other things she and her husband say, if a teacher contradicts them."

For the record: in my high school classes, if we ever get into a discussion over an argumentative topic (which believe me, in an English classroom happens at least once a week if not more), I always preface my personal beliefs with a disclaimer of just that..."in my opinion" or "I personally believe." My job is to teach these kids to argue their own side of things, not just to take what I say and regurgitate it. Teenagers actually do have a thought process, however difficult it may be to keep them focused on it.

[T2K]

Dat be sum of da best spellun I've sean around hear in a while.

 

Keith

[dtel's wife]

Now, as for the Common Core (because I'm sure that will come up if it hasn't already), it's just the newest in a long line of trying to stick a bandaid on a gaping wound. Good teachers actually do stick to the basics. The same things that have been taught for hundreds of years. No set of standards will change the way I teach; I will continue to do what I do, only I will find the standard that fits what I was already doing to begin with. That is not to say that I don't learn new and better methods every time I teach a lesson or attend a good professional development workshop (though those are rare indeed). If a teacher can't figure out how to use the standards in that way, they ought not be teaching. Of course, I haven't seen the CC math standards, so I'm only speaking about English and history.

 

 

Common Core standards for math are outright ludicrous.  Thank goodness, some of the grass roots movements at local levels are finally taking hold.  Many have reached the state level and the current movement is to rid our country of this awful infringement on teaching and learning.

[mangofirst]

Oscar, your point is well taken. However, the decision to use direct discussion with my daughter as opposed to getting the school involved is, I believe, generational (the incidents I described occurred decades ago). My wife, I, and all of our contemporaries believe that it's impossible to shelter a child from the realities of the world. Consequently, we always promoted an open environment where any issue could be, and was, discussed. Our daughter, and all her friends, knew the score about relevant social issues when they were very young. This was our way of being diligent and participating. And it worked very well. There was no need to get the school involved in the bus incidents because, short of putting a cop on every school bus, installing cameras, or asking the driver to frequently pull over and walk back there to see what was going on, it could not have been stopped. Sure, she "tested the waters" a bit, but always found out that the advice she had been brought up with was sound. Contrast that with today's "helicopter parents" who control every aspect of their kids' lives to such a degree that they are incapable of making any decisions on their own. Heck, I know parents around here who have given up careers and moved to the town in which their kid attended college so they could keep tabs on things and be in total control! So, it comes down to philosophy, and I'm not going to say that mine is necessarily better than another. It worked for my daughter and her friends so I can't complain. But to get back to my opening premise, there's just too much "political correctness" applied to situations in which it isn't warranted. Given the illicit drug issues, weapons, and other serioius matters at even the elementary school level, making a fuss over the tooth fairy seems ludicrous. One more comment on the different generational issues- when I was a kid growing up in a rough neighborhood, it was common to give someone a bloody nose after school (usually in the school yard) if you didn't like them. Often, of course, we shook hands and became friends afterwards. Today, when that occurs, the parents of the "injured" kid sue the school, sue the parents of the "bully," get a restraining order, demand that the "bully" get psychological counseling, get the police involved (especially if the kids happen to be of different nationalities), get the story into every newspaper in existence, demand that the "bully" be suspended from school, and so on. It sucks, and I'm thankful that I don't have any kids or grandkids who have to be involved in the lunacy.

Wow, my fingers are tired from all this typing! Glad that I'll be in the shop all day tomorrow. Soldering is far less taxing!!! Thanks for the great discussion guys. Hope I didn't stir the pot too much.

Maynard

Maynard......... Appreciate the response and your very circumspect approach to parenting your own children. But there is another and perhaps bigger issue here and it is the character of the community and what it accepts as behavioral norms. The girls whose parents failed them were being victimized (I think we agree). The boys victimizing those girls needed something between serious discipline and profound counseling. They all grew into young adults with some very unsavory baggage and who knows how well each of them dealt with it. As for the schools they do have expulsion and they can remove transportation privileges. That was one clear occasion where action was 100% required on everyones part. I can not believe that any parent informed of what those kids were doing would not be deeply grateful for it being brought to their attention.

Outrageous behavior is an outrage and it is during those formative years that behavioral boundaries need to be established. Help the schools do this by reporting outrageous behavior. I will not guarantee that anything will be done - but the responsible parent does need to do their part IMHO.

I never felt like a victim on the band bus...alas, I did have the couth not to do such things on a bus with small children or in the daylight... :-/ Edited April 30, 2015 by mangofirst

[babadono]

Yes there is.  Children who never learn.

Do you mean can't learn or are never taught?

[babadono]

If you can read this  --- Thank a teacher.

[mangofirst]

Hmm mmm? It looked to me like Carl was equating, or comparing fiction to lying. Those are not related, so I kind of reject the comparison.

 

I think they are related and I suppose that's where we'll differ.  You are presenting a story to your child.  The words are coming out of your mouth.  Just the fact that you're reading it to your child gives it credibility in their eyes.  They imagine the story is real.  You could say it's a lie by omission if you never give a disclaimer to your child before or after reading it.

I'm trying to figure out just when and how my amazing parents helped me figure out that a story is a story and you can play it out in your mind but it's not reality.

"Brie'Anne, we need to have a serious talk...Big Bird, Oscar the Grouch, and The Cookie Monster are not real."

"You mean there aren't really green and blue furry monsters in the real world?" *cries*

I do remember my first relationship with death though. Mr. Hooper died and I was very upset. But Mr. Hooper was a human...I think it's okay for a preschooler to cry about that, even if he was playing a character on TV. And by the way, Sesame Street did a bang up job with explaining that whole situation. I had a book about it. :-D

[twistedcrankcammer]

And I'd beg to differ with Mark on the subject of illegals being "critical" to our economy; I don't see it that way at all, not even close; but then, I'm not an expert, I only grew up surrounded by illegals. All along the border towns, I'll agree, yes they work cheap, not relatively cheap, but dirt cheap. However, once they get past the BP (border patrol) check stations, it's bye bye discount labor. Our yard man wants $120 to take care of our yard. Just him and another guy. From the time he arrived, to the time he was driving off the property, it took him 2.5 to 3 hours max. And we wanted to hire him twice a month. My wife tried hiring his wife to help clean the house, she declined, said $50 bucks wasn't enough for 1/2 a day, she wanted $100.

 

You asked about California, not Texas. If they aren't critical in Texas, that's no argument against mine. I said they were crucial to California's economy, and they are. We have the largest most productive agricultural area in the country and it will come to a screeching halt without Mexican labor of all kinds. We build houses by the hundreds of thousands and that will also come to a screeching halt without Mexicans. It's not my opinion, it's the considered opinion of all economists who study the California economy. Even Reagan admitted they were indispensible. Remind me, how long have you lived in California?

 

Gee, I'm real sorry your yard costs $120 to service. Mine is only $75.

Mark,

A lot of us just don't find California's bankrupt economy or water problems a concern for us.... To many Gays and Communists for me to care if the big quake happens and you all drown to be brutally honest with you! I think the book is already written on this Country's economy and it is very capable of collapse in October despite your concerns for illegals or your bankrupt state...

Roger

[Travis In Austin]

And I'd beg to differ with Mark on the subject of illegals being "critical" to our economy; I don't see it that way at all, not even close; but then, I'm not an expert, I only grew up surrounded by illegals. All along the border towns, I'll agree, yes they work cheap, not relatively cheap, but dirt cheap. However, once they get past the BP (border patrol) check stations, it's bye bye discount labor. Our yard man wants $120 to take care of our yard. Just him and another guy. From the time he arrived, to the time he was driving off the property, it took him 2.5 to 3 hours max. And we wanted to hire him twice a month. My wife tried hiring his wife to help clean the house, she declined, said $50 bucks wasn't enough for 1/2 a day, she wanted $100.

You asked about California, not Texas. If they aren't critical in Texas, that's no argument against mine. I said they were crucial to California's economy, and they are. We have the largest most productive agricultural area in the country and it will come to a screeching halt without Mexican labor of all kinds. We build houses by the hundreds of thousands and that will also come to a screeching halt without Mexicans. It's not my opinion, it's the considered opinion of all economists who study the California economy. Even Reagan admitted they were indispensible. Remind me, how long have you lived in California?

Gee, I'm real sorry your yard costs $120 to service. Mine is only $75.

Mark,

A lot of us just don't find California's bankrupt economy or water problems a concern for us.... To many Gays and Communists for me to care if the big quake happens and you all drown to be brutally honest with you! I think the book is already written on this Country's economy and it is very capable of collapse in October despite your concerns for illegals or your bankrupt state...

Roger

You had better care, if California goes BK it will drag the entire country with it. The SDP of CA is larger then the next 3 largest SDP states combined. CA's SDP is five times that if Ohio. If it gets close the the brink, you, and everyone else in the country will pay to bail it out. Ohio keeps slipping in SDP, 7th a few years ago, now below North Carolina at 9th. It will continue to slip because a major portion of the SDP is tied to the auto industry.

In other words, it will never go BK, because it will either turn around or it will get bailed out, gays, communists and all. It isn't going to fall in the ocean either, LA and SF keep moving north because they are on a different plate, but nothing is falling off into any ocean.

Why do they get bailed out? First, because it is too big to fail. Second, CA has political clout. 10 percent of the House, 10 percent of the electoral college. If they need a bailout the CA deligation can politically demand one, and they will because they will be gone if they don't. It would be greatest bipartisan effort ever seen in this Country. Republicans, Democrats, communists, independents, gays, whites, Hispanics, blacks, Asians, all working together, hand in hand to get a bailoit.

Lived in CA first 26 years of my life, only met one communist, Angela Davis, but she had switched to socialist party, so that probably doesn't count.

People in the Midwest are just going to have to get over the gay thing. They are in every state, every city, every school, always have been, always will be, it is just a matter of how open they are. There are two types. In open communities the ones you knew were gay anyway will talk about their partner. In closed communities they marry for apperances and sneak around any chance they can like that senator from Wyoming who got caught in the Minneapolis airport bathroom trying to solicit some sort of sexual act from a male UC vice cop.

Instead of worrying about gays, communists, conservatives, liberals, the tooth fairy or whatever else, I feel we would have been far better served if that time had been spent in figuring ways for US manufacturing to inovate and stay ahead of the game like we did with chip manufacturing.

Travis

[T2K]

Are you saying then that what goes around comes around, so to speak?

 

Keith

[muel]

 

Although Mark is wrong about this being a Christian nation.  The whole point of the clause in the constitution refutes that.

 

 

Of course I am referring to the nation culturally. Who cares what's in the old Constitution? It's irrelevant mostly after 200 years. I don't mean irrelevant in people's dreams and fantasies, I mean effectively irrelevant as a national institutional framework. All that matters now is the ludicrous, but appropriately named, "Supreme Court."

 

 

Really!?  Is everyone going to let this go?  It is amazing to me the disdain people have of the very document (along with the Bill of Rights) that provided them the freedom and life that they enjoy today.

 

I certainly agree that it is treated as irrelevant by those sworn to uphold it.  

[muel]

Of course you haven't looked at it to give you direction for your actions.  It isn't a document that gives approval or disapproval of the actions of people.  It tells the GOVERNMENT what it cannot do.  It is up to people to be sure that the government is following our rules.  Not working too well in practice.  You are right that indifference is probably the appropriate word to describe the people.  Disdain might be more appropriate to describe our leaders attitudes.

[muel]

It doesn't say you have free speech.  It says that congress cannot prohibit free speech etc...

This isn't just quibbling over semantics... it is directed DIRECTLY at the government telling them what they cannot do.

I don't deny the fact that there are abuses on a daily basis.  Doesn't make it right.  And doesn't make it a waste of time to try to make them pay attention to the rules.  Not just a personal fantasy but an American dream.  

 

Oh, and I love chocolate bunnies and the eggs they lay but the quality of chocolate is often lacking.  I hate it when they are hollow... much like political speeches.  

[CECAA850]

In the end, it's like Santa Clause and Magic Bunnies laying chocolate eggs.

 

Mark, you're better than that.  Everyone knows the Bunnies only deliver the eggs.  Bunnies laying eggs is just too far out there.

[BigStewMan]

 

In the end, it's like Santa Clause and Magic Bunnies laying chocolate eggs.

 

Mark, you're better than that.  Everyone knows the Bunnies only deliver the eggs.  Bunnies laying eggs is just too far out there.

 

I’ll bet they both lay chocolate eggs…so to speak.

Did i just write that?  See what this place is doing to me.

[mangofirst]

Although Mark is wrong about this being a Christian nation.  The whole point of the clause in the constitution refutes that.

 

 

Of course I am referring to the nation culturally. Who cares what's in the old Constitution? It's irrelevant mostly after 200 years. I don't mean irrelevant in people's dreams and fantasies, I mean effectively irrelevant as a national institutional framework. All that matters now is the ludicrous, but appropriately named, "Supreme Court."

 

Really!?  Is everyone going to let this go?  It is amazing to me the disdain people have of the very document (along with the Bill of Rights) that provided them the freedom and life that they enjoy today.

 

I certainly agree that it is treated as irrelevant by those sworn to uphold it.

I didn't realize until we did a Constitution Day ceremony at my school this year that every branch of the U.S. military swears an oath not to protect our country or the people in it, but to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic," and "bear true faith and allegiance to the same". The only catch there is that they also swear to obey orders of the POTUS and officers appointed over them...seems like the last few presidents we've had haven't really upheld their own oaths to "preserve, protect and defend" the same.

Can we just take a moment to notice the words 'and domestic' up there? Anyone wanna take a swing at defining a domestic enemy for me?

[BigStewMan]

Can we just take a moment to notice the words 'and domestic' up there? Anyone wanna take a swing at defining a domestic enemy for me?

do you want their forum names?     Friday is the best day to joke around since … Thursday.

[mangofirst]

Muel,

 

I think indifference is more appropriate than disdain. Whatever freedom people have is subject to immediate revocation at any moment by anyone stronger than they, and by anyone with the authority to use force. I often wonder what someone like Celsea Manning thought about the freedom provided by the Constitution when he was being tortured? Where was the BoR then? It's a fantasy mostly. For the most part, you live independent of authority and your internal moral compass tells you what you should do or not do. I can never in my long life recall a time when I had to look in the Constitution to find approval for my action. Never. Neither do I know anyone else who has done that. If you feel angry and righteous, for example, you will protest whether you have the right or not.

 

Officially, the government and courts have stashed the document under glass as a show piece and have gone on about their business as they wish. It's the courts, and in particular the Supreme Court, which determines case by case if you can be penalized for your actions. Huge, dynamic societies of hundreds of millions of people simply can't be corralled by documents. And, governments striding the world to enforce their wishes on billions of other peoples, have far too much built-in hypocrisy to follow the ethics in such documents. Reality lies well outside the best intentions committed to paper.

So what's your solution? What can we do about it? You use the word indifference and I agree. Our forefathers would be ashamed of the apathy shown by the American people regarding the state of our nation.

P.S. From what I've read, Chelsea Manning committed treason and she was treated as a military prisoner. Nothing jumped out at me as torture or cruel and unusual punishment if that's what you were referring to...and that Fifth Amendment is a real b for those in the armed services who decide to commit a capital crime.

[mangofirst]

Of course you haven't looked at it to give you direction for your actions.  It isn't a document that gives approval or disapproval of the actions of people.  It tells the GOVERNMENT what it cannot do.  It is up to people to be sure that the government is following our rules.  Not working too well in practice.  You are right that indifference is probably the appropriate word to describe the people.  Disdain might be more appropriate to describe our leaders attitudes.

Or the attitudes of the people toward said leaders.

[mangofirst]

Can we just take a moment to notice the words 'and domestic' up there? Anyone wanna take a swing at defining a domestic enemy for me?

do you want their forum names?     Friday is the best day to joke around since … Thursday.

Let's not get the NSA involved...oh wait, if you type NSA are they automatically involved? :-D