Question for those familiar with Audyssey.

[AaronB123]

Just a quick question. When running Audyssey on my Marantz SR 5011 it goes through a stage where it asks you to put the mic in each seating position available for calibration. It has like 15 different positions it wants you to put it in but if you just have like 3 seating positions can you just do the 3 then hit next? Otherwise I feel like I just keep putting it back in the same spots. 

[ricktate]

I can not help with the question. But what do you think of that receiver. I am looking at the bottom of the line Marantz cause I cant afford more but it does have pre outs so I can hook my power amp to it.

[AaronB123]

27 minutes ago, ricktate said:

I can not help with the question. But what do you think of that receiver. I am looking at the bottom of the line Marantz cause I cant afford more but it does have pre outs so I can hook my power amp to it.

I actually really like it a lot and would highly recommend it! That's the exact reason I bought it actually, because you can get a reasonably priced one with Pre outs. In my opinion it has a very similar sound to Pioneer Elite's and seems to pair very well with Klipsch heritage. 

[USNRET]

1 hour ago, AaronB123 said:

Just a quick question. When running Audyssey on my Marantz SR 5011 it goes through a stage where it asks you to put the mic in each seating position available for calibration. It has like 15 different positions it wants you to put it in but if you just have like 3 seating positions can you just do the 3 then hit next? Otherwise I feel like I just keep putting it back in the same spots. 

You can use as few or as many as you like. I typically use just 3 across the couch as I have a bad layout. Doesn't do any good to repeat location.

[DizRotus]

ClaudeJ1 instructed me to make multiple measurements from the single sweet spot until Audyssey stopped asking for more.

[Chris A]

Taking multiple measurements without moving the microphone location will simply weight that measurement's position higher from the other microphone positions where frequency sweeps are performed. 

 

Moving the microphone just a little (like a couple of inches laterally) between microphone positions might have a greater effect on low frequency EQ than you might realize.  Small changes in listening position usually has a very great effect on the perceived bass frequencies below the room's Schroeder frequency (the below formula is in metric units):

 

f_s = 2000 ( T₆₀ / V )^1/2     [Hz]

 

where fs is the Schroeder frequency, T60 is the reverberation time in the mid-bass band (usually between 0.2 and 0.8), and V is the volume of the room in cubic metres.   The Schroeder frequency is the dividing point between the diffuse room modes and the sparse room modes.  The value of most listening rooms' Schroeder frequency is usually around 200 Hz, but it could be much lower--my listening room's Schroeder frequency is just over 100 Hz. 

 

I'd use a thick piece of acoustically absorbent material under your little microphone that's supplied with Audyssey-equipped AVRs and AVPs.  The reflections off of the surfaces that the microphone sits on will affect the measurements.

 

However, I've not been successful using the EQ or dynamic EQ functions using Audyssey--no matter how many times it runs.  So I turn off those settings and use my own EQ using my active crossover and REW (Room EQ Wizard).  That method works about two orders of magnitude better in my room than Audyssey.

 

Chris

[Paducah Home Theater]

4 hours ago, AaronB123 said:

It has like 15 different positions it wants you to put it in but if you just have like 3 seating positions can you just do the 3 then hit next? Otherwise I feel like I just keep putting it back in the same spots. 

 

One massive misunderstanding with Audyssey is that they want you to put the microphone in every seat.  If you pay attention, they also tell you to not put it more than two feet away from the first position, which usually isn't compatible with putting it in every seat.  Audyssey basically measures a bubble and people usually find that measuring within the same seat at the main listening position provides the best results.  You can get 8 positions in a single seat.  Audyssey does let you skip to the end after 3 measurements though, at least with Audyssey pro.  Not sure I'd stretch those three between three different seats though.  

[RoboKlipsch]

First I'll say that every room and setup is different, so what works for one is not exactly the same as others. 

But Audyssey makes clear through many Q&As, the Blu-Ray forum guide, and many other sources, that multiple measurements helps a great deal in getting a good response.

 

Dennis Erskine is one of the more knowledegable acoustic engineers, he makes clear in his view that a mutlichannel setup (surround sound), the idea is NO BAD SEATS, versus 2 channel setups where it typically is more about ONE REALLY GOOD SEAT.  So what does that mean?  To me it means that the goal in surround sound is to insure that every seat sounds good, or as good as it can, within the main seating area.

 

Here's what I have distilled to be critically important about running Audyssey --

 

#1)  And by far most important -- how well you setup your room and system determines the final results you will get more than how Audyssey runs.  Putting your sub, or subs, in the right place(s), along with your speakers, is the most important part of having a good setup.  

 

#1a) (optional):  Having your own measuring equipment, such as a UMIK and REW, allows you to track Audyssey's improvement - and your own efforts with different sub positions.  it's optional, but honestly critical if you want to really know what's "best" in your room.  

 

#2) One measurement, of anything, is not always accurate.  The more measurements taken, the better the results will be, even if taking repeat measurements of the same or a similar location.  Any blips in the response are smoothed out, any background noise is mitigated with more measurements.  If you find yourself repeating a measurement, instead, take a measurement in between the places your originally planned to measure.  Vary the microphone height up and down a few inches, if not more.  Clearing the seat back is a critical factor and should be done for all measurements.  Don't hide the mic in front of the couch down low where the back speakers can't project sound directly at the microphone.  REMEMEBER HOW YOU DID AUDYSSEY...SO NEXT TIME YOU CAN DO THE SAME, OR TRACK YOUR CHANGES AS YOU ALTER THE POSITIONS.  

 

#3) Although I, and many others, have suggested what the best "layout" for readings is, generally, what Audyssey says to do, imo is pretty much right.  They have a diagram showing how to take measurements, and where.  The most important elements to understand are --

          --  The system wants to get readings at different heights, at different distances, and from a "bubble" like area surrounding your seating position.

          --  Using a boom microphone to hold the Audyssey mic, and keep the boom out of the direct fire of the fronts (and others, where possible), is helpful.

          --  As Chris A says above, you can use multiple measurements to "weight" the correction i.e. 2 measurements in the main seat will weight it 2x the other measurements.

          --  Because your room and seating are not exactly as Audyssey wants in a perfect room, you can and should modify their diagram to best fit your own setup

 

#4) For a long time, with 1 sub, then 2 subs, and even 4 subs, I could not get the positioning of the subs such that the response was similar at all seats.  The closer you can get to having similar responses at each position, the better the correction Audyssey can do -- and therefore, #1, remains and is, the most important element.  What I'm saying here is, you may find that because one or more seating positions is hard to bring into a similar response to the main listening position.  You may find that you have to compromise and make certain seats the critical ones to measure.  And not measure others -- or measure them with less "weight".

 

#5) The bottom line also is this -- you may run Audyssey and the first time (or the 2nd, or 563rd :))  it simply may not do a good job.  You will know immediately after running Audyssey if it sounds "good" or "better".  If you suspect it doesn't, simply run it again.  Expect, before you "master" Audyssey, that you may run it say, 50 times over the next month or two.  You may only run it a few times, but with practice and experience, you'll learn tricks about your room, and how it responds to Audyssey.

 

#6)  As others suggest, there is no requirement to use a lot of measurements.  If 1, 2 3 or how many seems "right", go for it.  Audyssey -- and myself -- suggest you use them all.  And a tip/trick here is this -- maybe, while you are testing out different sub positions, or speaker positions (or seating positions, if you have that flexibility), you only run Audyssey using a few positions.  But once you start to "dial it in" and it sounds great, try using more, and try using them all.  Chris, one of the inventors of Audyssey, makes a very clear and specific point that the Audyssey program is looking for "groups" of issues within the response i.e. multiple readings finding similar problems are corrected, more than a single reading with a problem.  So what does it correct?  Whatever it believes to be the most "common" problems.  Example, if every measurement shows a dip at 30, it will most definitely work to correct that dip at 30.  If one measurement shows it, and the others do not, it likely won't be corrected, or not by much.

 

#7)  Last thing, the "bible", more or less, is at Blu-Ray forum.  It's not perfect or complete, but does a good job summarizing an incredibly large and diverse amount of information regarding Audyssey.  http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159948

 

Good luck.  And be willing and ready to run it multiple times, with different setups, in order to find your ideal response.  Having measurement equipment of your own is a key factor in really knowing what Audyssey is doing.  You don't need it, but it's a key to optimizing.   

 

[Zen Traveler]

38 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

One massive misunderstanding with Audyssey is that they want you to put the microphone in every seat.  If you pay attention, they also tell you to not put it more than two feet away from the first position, which usually isn't compatible with putting it in every seat.

I haven't kept up with the Audyssey threads recently but saw the comment above and wonder if they changed how to do the set up because I don't remember them saying NOT to put it 2 ft from the initial position? If a person has 3 seats isn't that the bubble they are talking about which would make the parameter wider than the recommendation above?

 

I have an older version of Audyssey in our Denon AVR-4311ci so the instructions on the newer models may have changed.

[Paducah Home Theater]

33 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I haven't kept up with the Audyssey threads recently but saw the comment above and wonder if they changed how to do the set up because I don't remember them saying NOT to put it 2 ft from the initial position?

 

Here's what I'm talking about.  Basically you put the microphone in the middle of the main listening position, and subsequent positions aren't supposed to be more than 2 feet away from that first position.  

 

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRS710W/NA/EN/GFNFSYnuokgukf.php

 

[Khornukopia]

My Audyssey microphone is attached to a hinged bracket on the end of a boom that clips onto the quick release of a camera tripod. This allows me to "float" the microphone to the exact position desired. If I plan to make any room or equipment changes in the near future that will require re-calibration, I will just test three positions and skip to calculate.

 

[garyrc]

The BEST guide to Audyssey set up is here:  "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here." Read it through!  It has a clarity absent from most manuals.

 

Use all mic positions.  Mic positions are not identical to seating positions, but position 1 should be at ear level in the Main Listening Position.

 

Most rooms have jagged bass peaks, and people get used to those peaks.  Audyssey does a fairly good job of removing them, and people tend to ask, "What happened to my bass?"   But by using Audyssey to make the way straight for the music, the bass -- now pretty smooth -- can be turned back up in a smooth way, not in jagged peaks.  The best Audyssey EQ results I have heard (including my own) have been improved by a smooth bass boost AFTER Audyssey calibration.  This can be done by turning up the subwoofer as a last step.  Some AVRs and pre-pros also have tone control options, so the mid bass can be turned up there (these are NOT the virtual sliders; the latter can't be used with Audyssey).   Harmon research found that most people prefer their curve to be slanted down from the deepest bass (the high point) to the highest treble (the low point), with a differential of about 9 dB.

[Zen Traveler]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 0:33 PM, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

Here's what I'm talking about.  Basically you put the microphone in the middle of the main listening position, and subsequent positions aren't supposed to be more than 2 feet away from that first position.

From the AVS Audyssey FAQ thread linked to in Garyrc's post above: {Bolding mine}

The first mic position should always be at the Main Listening Position (because it is used to determine the distances and levels of each speaker). The other positions should be either side at roughly 2 feet intervals and then in front and behind if possible

 

{End}

 

Fwiw, I don't take that to mean only 2 feet from the 1st position and if you look at the diagram, although the 2nd and 3rd may be 2 feet, if that is so then several of the other ones appear to be further than that from the MPL (1), imo.  

 

[Rich_Guy]

You should use all of Audyssey's specific mic locations, not your actual seating spots.

[Chris A]

Seems to be a lot of "Audyssey lore" out there. 

 

I can't agree that you have to use all the random access memory that's available to you in your AVR or AVP while running Audyssey in order to achieve best results--this is simply not reasonable.  But using more than three locations may improve the results somewhat.  I've found that Audyssey firmware isn't able to correct well in somewhat mid-sized-to-larger rooms with highly directional loudspeakers and somewhat higher RT₆₀'s (reverberation times in the 0.3-0.5 range vs. frequency) very well at all.  In fact, it performs fairly horribly under those conditions, I've found. 

 

Chris

[Rich_Guy]

1 hour ago, Rich_Guy said:

You should use all of Audyssey's specific mic locations, not your actual seating spots.

 

BTW this is according to Chris the founder of Audyssey.

 

He also recommends that when a subwoofer is used always set your speakers to SMALL even if running Audyssey sets them to LARGE. If they get set to LARGE when running Audyssey it actually is not Audyssey that does this just something being done by the receiver/processors manufactuers settings. He recommends resetting them to SMALL if running Audyssey sets them as LARGE

[Chris A]

A link?

[Zen Traveler]

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a-1726.html#d2

 

d)2. Do I really need to use all the available Audyssey mic positions?

Yes. The best results will be obtained by using as many mic positions as your version of MultEQ allows. The more data provided to the Audyssey filters, the better end result of your final calibration.

This is what Chris Kyriakakis, Audyssey CTO, has to say on subject:

"Taking measurements in one spot guarantees bad sound. The algorithm needs to collect data from around the listening area in order to work correctly. One should not think of mic locations as being the same as seating locations. The recommended pattern for measurements is shown here. Whether you have one listener or many, all available measurements should be taken to provide the algorithm with the needed data."
 

[Chris A]

Since I cannot find the original site where Chris Kyriakakis was quoted (and that bothers me a bit), I'll quote what was actually at that link position that Zen thankfully provided:

 

Quote

This is what Chris Kyriakakis, Audyssey CTO, has to say on subject:

"Taking measurements in one spot guarantees bad sound. The algorithm needs to collect data from around the listening area in order to work correctly. One should not think of mic locations as being the same as seating locations. The recommended pattern for measurements is shown here. Whether you have one listener or many, all available measurements should be taken to provide the algorithm with the needed data."

The number of mic positions allowed depends on your 'flavour' of MultEQ. The basic 2EQ allows for only 3 mic positions; MultEQ allows for 6 positions and both MultEQ XT and MultEQ XT 32 allow for 8 positions. However, please note that AVR manufacturers have some flexibilty in this regard. Denon, for example, has reduced the maximum number of mic positions on their XX13 XT models from 8 to 6 positions when using the Setup Wizard, but all 8 (recommended) can be done outside of the Setup Wizard. Marantz has also taken the same route with their 2012 models featuring XT.

 

This isn't the same thing as "use all 16 positions".

 

I came out of the geophysical industry, namely Vibroseis.  I'm exceedingly familiar with the effects of stacking data on different source positions, and what it can do.  What Mr. Kyriakakis is saying is that his algorithms have trouble in small rooms, and the more measurements that you use, the better his algorithms work.  I'd agree, but only the the extent that they can improve using all the measurements--which isn't very much at all.  In addition, there is a lack of information to the user on just what Audyssey is trying to do.  This is the most serious flaw that I've dealt with.

 

My experience is that his algorithms don't work very well for the conditions that I stated above, no matter if I use 3 or all 8 possible measurements, in the pattern that is mentioned (...in fact, it's the worst that I've heard out of my setup).  I'm using Jubilees (K-402/TAD-4002 two-ways), a center K-402-MEH, and surround Cornwalls, with two SPUD clone tapped horn subs in the corners just behind the Jubilees.  My experience is that REW, a calibration microphone, and a good active digital crossover works quite well.  The results of Audyssey basically turns off the highs and the extreme lows below 20 Hz in some sort of "preferred Audyssey curve" (an oxymoron).  It also misadjusts the distance to the subwoofer drivers by about 20 feet (i.e., the path length of the horns).  These are serious flaws in his algorithms. If Audyssey did anything like a good chirp analysis using longer sweeps and phase information, these problems could be avoided.  But it doesn't.

 

So to re-iterate: if you can't do it very well with 3-5 measurements, 8 or 16 aren't going to help very much.

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

[Rich_Guy]

8 minutes ago, Chris A said:

This isn't the same thing as "use all 16 positions".

7 minutes ago, Chris A said:

all available measurements should be taken to provide the algorithm with the needed data."

 

Use ALL available positions, different versions of Audyssey have different amounts of positions available