kink56 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 12/31/2018 at 1:17 PM, ODS123 said: Simply not true. I'll grant that it's not easy, but certainly possible. And no need to let the challenges of a DBT stand in the way of using some sort of bias controls. For example, simple volume matching during comparisons would be useful. And a go a step further and have a friend/ family member change speaker cables around while you leave the room, then power up and return the playing amp to the same volume level. This simple exercise would be very eye-opening for gold-eared audiophiles. Yet... people resist. They'd rather claim to be able to hear huge, meaningful differences b/w amps. As for speaker/ interconnect cables: I've suggested countless times that people simply connect a pricey one to one channel, a cheap to the other than switch back and forth using the balance control (assuming you have one) while listening to a mono recording. Are those differences b/w the pricey and generic cabling still audible?? Not saying yes or no using your method. But if you are listening for the "body" of an instrument, the positioning in the soundstage, the depth of the image (as well as height, width) the 3-D effect of the recording, that might be were different cables and wires will show their differences. But as long as so many Klipsch lovers discount this as important then no, I would say there would be no difference between the L and R speaker in your scenario. I have heard recordings where one of two singers can sound just left of center and the other just right of center. I can hear their chest, their sinuses, their palate etc. Throw in lamp cord and that subtle nuance just might collapse. If you limit the perimeters to just a few, then surely you are no going to pay attention, or even notice other parameters some people find too important to discount. On 12/31/2018 at 1:17 PM, ODS123 said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/1/2019 at 11:18 AM, Zen Traveler said: Given that this is in the General Forum section it reminds me the big difference between the Home Theater Hobbyist compared to the 2 Channel Crowds needs. Imo, there can be more playing around with different amps in the latter but for Home Theater/Multichannel music, folks use SS amps that should be pretty consistent in their sound when comparing similar speced units (including impedance requirements). That is where the beginner should decide which formats they want to play and the purchase processor which suits their needs....Affordable all-in-one AVRs really have come along with upperend trickling down to lower end units and all getting less expensive compared with 15 years ago. Rooms, Obstacles and Environment is definitely on the short list. My opinion is HT and audiophile are mutually exclusive. They have totally different priorities from what I can see. One is concerned with high fidelity and the other is enamored with "hi-fi" effects and pizzazz factor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Tizman said: Yes. He probably gave her a list of the must have features he and every beginner audiophile require, and there is no other amplifier with that feature set. So McIntosh it was. I’m pretty sure that my wife loves me, but not that much. Let’s hope all the beginners out there have thoughtful and generous wives as well. Otherwise, no crucial mono switch, metres and balance knob for them. Oh well, what to do? At least every amp sounds the same and they won’t miss out on audio quality... sheesh, again the hostility.... No, I didn't give my wife a list of features I wanted, she simply let me pick it out. My recommendation to beginners was to get an integrated or AVR that can drive their speakers to desired levels without strain and has the feature set they want. The feature set they want and are willing to pay for will be different than mine. My first component was an NAD 7250PE integrated amplifier. I used it for 12 years until it conked out. It was terrific. It had a balance control, tone controls and, yes, a mono switch. I grew to appreciate all of them. Today, If I was younger and looking for an amp and didn't have much music dating back to the early days of stereo, I probably wouldn't care much about a mono switch. My oldest son keeps asking for integrated amp recommendations and I exclude mono switch b/c he would never use it. As for the wattage meters and input leveling they are definitely luxuries, I went for years without them. At no point did I suggest to beginners that they were essential features. ..And yes, the wattage meters were indeed helpful when driving my far less efficient Paradigm S8's, but not essential. As for tone controls and balance control - yes, I would recommend them to everyone, but the choice of course is theirs. ..And they can be found on many affordable integrateds and nearly all AVRs.. And you are incorrect, several Luxman and Accuphase integrated amps have meters, and a mono switch (on the remote of the Luxman). ..Not sure about input leveling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_kc Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 26 minutes ago, kink56 said: My opinion is HT and audiophile are mutually exclusive. They have totally different priorities from what I can see. One is concerned with high fidelity and the other is enamored with "hi-fi" effects and pizzazz factor. I have 3 systems that work well for movies and music. IME the relevance of surround-sound depends on room layout, and genre of music. Room layout. IME, when the main speakers must be far apart due to room layout, then a center channel is useful. Also, part of the “live-concert-hall experience” for large-scale orchestral music isn’t just the surround, it’s the amount of acoustic power. If in the same size room, you have quantity of 3 identical speakers (left, center, right), you’ll have more acoustic power than 2 speakers. Genre of music. Hi-res surround-sound recordings (SACD (audio-only), Pure Audio Blu-ray (audio-only), DSD downloads (audio only), Blu-ray (audio/video), and Ultra HD Blu-ray (audio/video)) are commonly available for classical, opera and ballet, and are capable of fabulous sound. (Blu-ray audio/video classical concert recordings are becoming common, and box sets (e.g., all symphonies by a composer) are often a great value.) I use Oppo universal players (UDP-205 x 2, BDP-105, BDP-95) that effectively have the pre-processor, bass management (i.e., RCA line-level subwoofer connection), and multi-channel DAC built-in. In other words, the Oppo players have RCA line-level connections for 2.0, 2.1, and 5.1. I can connect vintage tube amps direct to the Oppo players. I have 3 systems that serve double duty for movies and music: One 4.2 system. Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II. A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7. (Y cable from Oppo UDP-205 combines Surround L and Surround R. Oppo confirmed that this arrangement is OK.) Multiple tube amps. I connect one stereo tube amp for front L&R, plus a second tube amp for center and rear. Two subs connected via RCA Y cable to Oppo. (SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW.) For stereo source material, there is no compromise in audio quality when played as stereo – except that in this system the speakers are somewhat far apart. (Or, I can engage the Oppo’s DTS Neo:6 feature to generate pseudo center-channel and rear content, but I generally don’t want DSPs “mucking around” with the classical music I love.) For classical recordings that feature surround-sound, I realize excellent sound quality via my tube amps. Two 2.1 systems. Speakers are close enough (5 feet apart) that there is no “hole” that needs to be filled in (i.e., no need for a center channel). For Blu-ray movies, I use the stereo track, and dialog is mixed into the L&R speakers. Each of these systems has multiple tube amps, plus one solid-state amps for movies. In both systems the large tower speakers and subwoofer deliver excellent sound quality. In my 4 systems with multiple amps, I use patch panels (banana plugs) to enable me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I choose. I use a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch to connect the Oppo to the amp (except in my surround-sound system where I use F/F RCA cables). These systems work well for both movies and music. For the classical music I love, I have the minimum number of components (and DSPs) in the music chain. I can directly connect my vintage tube amps (e.g., a pair of MC30s) to my Oppo UDP-205 (i.e., no pre-amp, no pre-processor, no AVR, no outboard electronic crossover, etc). For movies I generally use a solid-state amp, in order to save hours on the tubes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 34 minutes ago, kink56 said: They have totally different priorities from what I can see. One is concerned with high fidelity and the other is enamored with "hi-fi" effects and pizzazz factor. I think you have either a misconsception or limited experience with folks that value both sound quality in music and movies....For the record, I listen to multichannel music almost every night with an occasional movie on the weekends I appreciate with my wife. Yes, effective surround for movies is a must but music can also benefit and sound sublime on our Home Theater listed below. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/5/2019 at 4:07 PM, robert_kc said: When you conducted your listening comparisons that caused you to conclude that “all modern amps sound the same”, were you listening to recordings “from the early age of stereo”? Or, were you listening to modern recordings that were captured and mastered in hi-res (i.e., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered in a hi-res format (e.g., SACD, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray, 24/192 download, or DSD download)? What type of player did you use to play the music files? In other words, have you performed your listening tests with top-quality state-of-the-art recordings and play-back gear? Or, are your conclusions based on listening to 50 year-old recordings? What genre of music was played during your listening tests? Music for which there is a clear benchmark for quality (e.g., classical), or not (e.g., disco)? I find that a LOT of 50 year old recordings sound much more natural and life-like than many modern recordings using modern formats. When I evaluate components I am far more apt to use Ella Fitzgerald's 'Round Midnight from Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie album than I would use Dark Side Of The Moon or the latest from innumerable pop star or rock albums. It is similar to the Robert_KC comments on his using unamplified live orchestra music as his standard rather than amplified or electronically enhanced/processed music. I KNOW what the human voice sounds like. And so few modern recording can come close to capturing it as well as many "50 year old" recordings. I think it has to do with modern aesthetics. Back in the day the GOAL was to capture music as accurately as possible. Now the goal is to make a "consumer product" than does not have fidelity as a priority but a marketable "sound" as its priority. Very few of my 5000 albums sound much like real human voices or real acoustic instruments. They try to create new sounds rather than replicating the actual sound. It is like two schools of thought on car restoration. One is to restore a car exactly like the factory original, including all decals, casting dates, ink/chalk inspection marks etc. The other is to make a custom car for a specific purpose (read: market) which does not even take any historical knowledge of the car in question. So much of today's music is being engineered by people who grew up with video games as their sound reference and may have never even hear a real violin or saxophone in the same room with them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Good post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Well as it comes to surround sound for music, I typically do not sit among the band and have members playing all around me. But that is not the entirety of my argument. But some people understand what I am saying and others do not. I have no desire to dissuade to persuade those who do not. I am just offering my perspective. Take it or leave it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 hour ago, robert_kc said: ME the relevance of surround-sound depends on room layout, and genre of music. Room layout. IME, when the main speakers must be far apart due to room layout, then a center channel is useful. Also, part of the “live-concert-hall experience” for large-scale orchestral music isn’t just the surround, it’s the amount of acoustic power. If in the same size room, you have quantity of 3 identical speakers (left, center, right), you’ll have more acoustic power than 2 speakers. Before modern HT receivers and Pre Pro's, for 30 years, I had 2 KCBR (Birch Khorns) and a LaScala (Birch also) since 1977. I built PWK's resistor box to get a mono middle, which had it's own amplifier, of course. The center channel was sat to about -3/-6 db down from the flanks depending on the recording. It just brought the image into more focus but did not add appreciably to the SPL................Fast Forward to today, the center is for VOICES only in 5.1 movies and is not used for stereo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, kink56 said: Well as it comes to surround sound for music, I typically do not sit among the band and have members playing all around me. But that is not the entirety of my argument. But some people understand what I am saying and others do not. I have no desire to dissuade to persuade those who do not. I am just offering my perspective. Take it or leave it. I'll take it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, kink56 said: I typically do not sit among the band and have members playing all around me. That's not necessarily how multichannel music works. Granted some does, but the way I like to look at it is being in the middle of what was going around in the creative genius's head and sometimes that material isn't so linear....Talking Heads are excellent in this regard. If you like Steely Dan or Donald Fagen those are most excellent as well and it's not like being in the middle of the band as much as being on the inside of the music. I can dig it if that's not for some, but then again I no longer listen to 2 channel material for my critical listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: I can dig it if that's not for some, but then again I no longer listen to 2 channel material for my critical listening. I need to try multichannel music. It’s something I haven’t gotten around to yet although I’m already set up for it. What are your all time favourite multichannel recordings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I would love to try multichannel again, but I have no idea what in the hell I’m doing. And the wires, too much damned wire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I wish this forum had a "go to first unread" button like some other forums do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtr20 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, kink56 said: I wish this forum had a "go to first unread" button like some other forums do. There is, I use it all the time. On my phone, it's a circle icon to the left of the thread title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 18 hours ago, dwilawyer said: What's that thing called in computer programing where you do a run and it starts a continuous loop? could be a "for" loop or a "while" loop or a "loopy loop" I knew her back in the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 4 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said: I have an extra pair of Carvers you can have cheap, if you can pay the shipping. I'll be using the other pair as umgawakikbootie Computer speakers on either side of my desk!! Oh I have both, just not in one set of speakers! If I had the room and money, I probably could get both dynamics (etc.) that Klipsch is known for, and fantastic 3-D holographic imaging that British monitors are known for in one set of speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Who says Klipsch can’t image...😄 Its rare that you will see someone with a room and setup that will allow the full imaging capabilities of the mighty Klipschorns but when done right they can have excellent imaging including depth. I have currently been doing a direct comparison between my Klipsch Jubilee system and a near field setup with KEF LS50 coaxial and I wish you all could hear how very similar in imaging they are ... 🙂 miketn 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 miketn: Nice setup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Tizman said: miketn: Nice setup! Thanks Tizman 🙂 I’ve been really having a lot of fun with it especially the last couple of months. Streaming Leonard Cohen “Ten New Songs” album right now and love the imaging they did on this recording..!!! miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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