Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[Edgar]

46 minutes ago, Don Richard said:

These sorts of tests are scientifically designed to remove biases and emotion in order to reveal the truth.

 

I'm a DBT proponent, but even I recognize that statement as an assertion in need of proof.

 

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Some people, when faced with the reality that they can't hear a difference between expensive equipment and a less expensive component, exhibit an emotional response

 

I'm an engineer; I design some of my own audio equipment, in particular digital signal processing equipment. I am astounded at the differences that I cannot hear ... and equally astounded at what I can. Sometimes I'll switch between digital and analog outputs from a CD player (adding an extra set of digital-to-analog and analog-to-digital conversions to the signal path), and for the life of me I won't be able to hear any difference. Other times I'll tune my algorithms by ear, and then go back and "work the math" to figure out what the values should be, only to find that I've nailed the values almost exactly, just by listening. In both cases my observed results were not what I expected, and it was unnerving.

 

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the test is not flawed and only the two pieces of gear that were tested are proven to sound the same.

 

Not quite. The only thing proven is that the person taking the test could not discern any difference under the test conditions. It does not prove that there aren't any differences.

[ODS123]

8 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

I'm an engineer; I design some of my own audio equipment, in particular digital signal processing equipment. I am astounded at the differences that I cannot hear ... and equally astounded at what I can. Sometimes I'll switch between digital and analog outputs from a CD player (adding an extra set of digital-to-analog and analog-to-digital conversions to the signal path), and for the life of me I won't be able to hear any difference. Other times I'll tune my algorithms by ear, and then go back and "work the math" to figure out what the values should be, only to find that I've nailed the values almost exactly, just by listening. In both cases my observed results were not what I expected, and it was unnerving.

 

I'm not sure what they take away is with this. 

10 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Not quite. The only thing proven is that the person taking the test could not discern any difference under the test conditions. It does not prove that there aren't any differences.

 

Yes, this is true.  But don't you think the 1000+ people who failed in Richard Clarks $10k challenge were just as confident in their hearing as you?  

[Edgar]

1 minute ago, ODS123 said:

I'm not sure what they take away is with this. 

 

Well, there could be several. It might be that we are sensitive to certain differences and insensitive to others. It might be that we can discern differences when we know specifically what to listen for (e.g., when tuning an algorithm I know what that algorithm is supposed to do to the sound, because I designed it). There are probably other viable interpretations.

 

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Yes, this is true.  But don't you think the 1000+ people who failed in Richard Clarks $10k challenge were just as confident in their hearing as you?  

 

The point that I was trying to make was that I am not confident in my own hearing, since my results were consistently the opposite of what I expected.

[ODS123]

On 1/2/2019 at 6:24 AM, ODS123 said:

 Who at Onkyo, NAD, Cambridge Audio, etc.. etc... serves as the Master Sound Sommelier?  Who is charged with tuning tweaking, adjusting the tone, texture, nuance of the sound ALL WITHOUT HAVING an actual measurable effect on the signal?  ..So how do they do this??  And how does one MSS pass the "house sound" recipe to the next MSS when this nuanced house sound isn't quantifiable,  measurable, or even describable? 

Still hoping someone can answer this for me.   For example, who would this be at McIntosh?  Of relevance to this, someone from another forum who used to work at McIntosh told me that no one at McIntosh Labs is able to reliably distinguish their current S/S gear from their current Tube gear.  So how/ where does  their house sound come from?

[Edgar]

18 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Still hoping someone can answer this for me.  

 

Well, for speakers it was easy, i.e., there really was a "Cerwin Vega sound", an "East Coast sound", and a "West Coast sound", and they were related to frequency response and woofer configuration.

 

For electronics, the closest thing to that might be a design philosophy, e.g., in the 1970s Sansui built amplifiers with MHz bandwidth, some manufacturers used DC coupling exclusively, BJTs vs.FETs, etc. Whether those actually translated to audible differences is at the heart of this thread.

 

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So how/ where does  their house sound come from?

 

Not too long ago I talked to one of the amplifier designers at Harman. I asked him straight out: "What do you do differently when designing an audiophile amplifier for Mark Levinson, vs. a pro amplifier for Crown, vs. a consumer amplifier for Harman Kardon?" He answered that the circuits were basically the same, only the quality and/or ratings of the individual components were different.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Edgar
Added response to ODS123's edit.

[TubeHiFiNut]

1 hour ago, Don Richard said:

 

Religion? Blind testing protocols aren't "religion", which implies blind faith. These sorts of tests are scientifically designed to remove biases and emotion in order to reveal the truth. Some people, when faced with the reality that they can't hear a difference between expensive equipment and a less expensive component, exhibit an emotional response; "This cannot be - the test is flawed" or "So all amplifiers sound the same? Bullshit". Of course, the test is not flawed and only the two pieces of gear that were tested are proven to sound the same.

Your zeal,  certainly supports my assertion.

 

Let me make myself perfectly clear: I do not care what technology an amp uses, only how it sounds.

 

I determine how an amplifier sounds by listening to that amp in my own rooms and in my systems.

 

There are some amps that sound so out of place that the audition can be mercifully short. Subtle differences can take longer to assess - and are any differences positive or negative.

 

When I find an amplifier that connects me to the music I love and I listen to more music, it stays. This is my primary assessment criteria.

 

And, from 47 years of experience, this observational method best suits my needs.

 

If you choose a different path, that's great and I sincerely wish you the best.

 

We hear, respond to that aural stimulus and interpret that stimulus into an emotional response differently.

 

Just please stop telling those of us who have found the ABX/DBT process to be of limited, if any, benefit to us and use a different method (one that works for us) that we are WRONG.

 

Just my OPINION.

[Zen Traveler]

10 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

20 hours ago, jason str said:

Klipsch would have folded long ago if everything sounded the same, luckily many of us can hear well enough to decipher what sounds great to us and what does not.

 

The bonus of having a tin ear = huge cost savings for you.

 

The rest of us = pay dearly.

so true

This brought a chuckle.

 

Of course, the flipside of the coin is for everyone of you there is at least another who thinks your "Golden Ears" makes/allows you to spend money on things the rest of us wouldn't. {Note: I'm not dissin' on those that feel they are blessed, just giving a contrary opinion.}

[Zen Traveler]

3 hours ago, Don Richard said:

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 7:28 PM, Deang said:

That is an especially useless endeavor - you should be using pink noise. 

 

Exactly.

Fwiw, I clarified my post about level-matching and then listening to your favorite passages after doing so. Honestly, this is still the best advice to any beginner who isn't going to take any sophisticated test to see if the recognize any differences....I still contend a lot of folks get "bugs" in their ear that psychologically influences what they are hearing.  The best anecdote to exemplify this is how salesman in the past (and folks on the internet since) who didn't offer Klipsch speakers would say, "I don't like' 'em because they are bright, real ear-bleeders." I am positive that leaves an impression on the newbie and shapes what they are considering on purchasing.

[mikebse2a3]

3 hours ago, Don Richard said:

 

I have observed the same. It's not an increase in loudness that I'm hearing but a change in timbre, and more than a subtle change.

Exactly my experience as well along with imaging changes as well especially noticeable on vocals.

[ClaudeJ1]

4 hours ago, Don Richard said:

 

Religion? Blind testing protocols aren't "religion", which implies blind faith. These sorts of tests are scientifically designed to remove biases and emotion in order to reveal the truth. Some people, when faced with the reality that they can't hear a difference between expensive equipment and a less expensive component, exhibit an emotional response; "This cannot be - the test is flawed" or "So all amplifiers sound the same? Bullshit". Of course, the test is not flawed and only the two pieces of gear that were tested are proven to sound the same.

I agree. Some people simply DO NOT want to know the truth and cling to their own heavy biases and gross misconceptions, including brand loyalty.

[ClaudeJ1]

45 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

Exactly my experience as well along with imaging changes as well especially noticeable on vocals.

Vocals are one of the best ways to test loudspeaker performance, especially FEMALE vocals, where male ears are most sensitive...............there's a real life pun in there somewhere. LOL

[Deang]

58 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

...I still contend a lot of folks get "bugs" in their ear that psychologically influences what they are hearing.  The best anecdote to exemplify this is how salesman in the past (and folks on the internet since) who didn't offer Klipsch speakers would say, "I don't like' 'em because they are bright, real ear-bleeders." I am positive that leaves an impression on the newbie and shapes what they are considering on purchasing.

Compared to most other loudspeakers, Klipsch speakers do sound "bright", and with cheap gear and/or lack of attention to setup and room -- will absolutely shred your hearing. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Still hoping someone can answer this for me.   For example, who would this be at McIntosh?  Of relevance to this, someone from another forum who used to work at McIntosh told me that no one at McIntosh Labs is able to reliably distinguish their current S/S gear from their current Tube gear.  So how/ where does  their house sound come from?

 

I indirectly answered your question on the same page you asked it (page 27). It's a combination of topology and quality of the parts employed.

[Deang]

30 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I agree. Some people simply DO NOT want to know the truth and cling to their own heavy biases and gross misconceptions, including brand loyalty.

If I drop in a nice Class D amplifier, it's obvious that it doesn't sound like the 50 pound Bryston I just pulled out. I mean. I've done this, it was pretty obvious, at least I thought it was.

 

I was just going through gear, experiencing it for what it offered. I didn't have any biases or brand loyalty, and still don't. "Gross misconceptions" might be overstating things, but I'm willing to accept that lack of education creates a potential pitfall.

 

I've also compared a $40 DVD player to a $400 Oppo. This was back in the early 2000s. It was ugly.

 

Like someone mentioned before, we've had these conversations before, and no one is going to change anyone else's mind.

 

I can respect an argument stating that things measuring the same sound the same -- at least I can understand that one. What I can't understand is an argument saying that things that are built differently, and measure differently -- also sound the same.

 

My advice to new people would be to do exactly what they do: They make a budget, and then read reviews and come to message boards looking for advice. Most will always do their best to make a solid recommendation for the budget they've formulated. I think this is better than suggesting they DBT all of their purchases. Seriously?

[SWL]

Vocals are one of the best ways to test loudspeaker performance, especially FEMALE vocals, where male ears are most sensitive...............there's a real life pun in there somewhere. LOL

I've been saying for years how impressive female vocals sound on my speakers. Unfortunately, that is something I could really care less about but can't deny how realistic a female's voice sounds when I do decide to listen to it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[TubeHiFiNut]

18 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I agree. Some people simply DO NOT want to know the truth and cling to their own heavy biases and gross misconceptions, including brand loyalty.

Please see my response to @Don Richard above.

 

Claude, I respect your knowledge and contributions to the discourse on this site.

 

Please accept that I am not blinded by topology nor brand loyalty nor fancy meters, etc. The ONLY thing I care about is how the DUT sounds. Does it better connect me emotionally with the music I love.

 

And it only has to please ME. I really don't care if others choose differently.

 

Of note: Recent additions to the amplifier stable were the very inexpensive Topping TP60 and Nobsound TPA3250 with Astron LS10A 28v Linear PS - both ~$200 and the slightly more expensive (~$900) KingKo KA-101 PP EL84 .

 

All sound good, in different ways. All have their place with certain speakers in residence.

 

All of my systems are built synergistically to best connect me to the music.

 

Hoping that this helps us come to the state that, where we may not agree on this point, we can agree to disagree.

 

Just my opinion.

[Don Richard]

3 hours ago, Edgar said:

4 hours ago, Don Richard said:

These sorts of tests are scientifically designed to remove biases and emotion in order to reveal the truth.

 

I'm a DBT proponent, but even I recognize that statement as an assertion in need of proof.

That is a true statement for any properly designed DBT. I actually participated in the design and construction of equipment used in an ABX/DBT for a university research project. I can assure you that bias removal was a goal in the method we employed.

 

2 hours ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Just please stop telling those of us who have found the ABX/DBT process to be of limited, if any, benefit to us and use a different method (one that works for us) that we are WRONG.

 

You were the one who called ABX/DBT a religion and, as far as that goes, you are the one who is wrong. It is a testing protocol totally without supernatural overtones. (Disclaimer: when properly designed.)

[Don Richard]

32 minutes ago, Deang said:

My advice to new people would be to do exactly what they do: They make a budget, and then read reviews and come to message boards looking for advice. Most will always do their best to make a solid recommendation for the budget they've formulated. I think this is better than suggesting they DBT all of their purchases. Seriously?

 

I do not think anyone is advising a person to actually set up a DBT on their own when making an equipment purchase. However, looking at the results of some blind tests may help a person with their decision, as well as considering testimonials, specs, price, and of course, personal listening evaluations.

[Tizman]

17 minutes ago, Deang said:

I've also compared a $40 DVD player to a $400 Oppo. This was back in the early 2000s. It was ugly.

The differences between different models of CD/‘DVD  players are also audible to me.   Most of the conversations about these differences online seem to be about the DACs used, but I think that most of the audible differences come from the output stages of the players.  In other words, the amplifier that steps up the signal in the player to line level.  There are many crappy output stages in CD and DVD players, and some good ones.  More players should be built with quality Class A output stages.  

 

[ODS123]

57 minutes ago, Deang said:

Compared to most other loudspeakers, Klipsch speakers do sound "bright", and with cheap gear and/or lack of attention to setup and room -- will absolutely shred your hearing. 

 

Shred your hearing?  Really?  ..Please tell me the make and model of an amp or CD player that is so horrendous that it will "absolutely shred my hearing."   I'm dying to see it's specifications.

 

I have a little bit of disposable money these days, I might actually buy this amp and see how it sounds with my Cornwalls.  Even if my room and setup will soften some of it's "shreddiness" (as you did say setup is a factor) I'm sure it will still sound much much poorer than my Mac, my Onkyo AVR or my $130 AudioSource Amp100, right??  I mean you did say "shred" so it should be plainly obvious.

 

If only for my edification, I would be happy to spend a few hundred bucks on a modern amplifier which is SO nasty that even a hardened skeptic such as my self can hear the difference.  I'd treat it w/ kid gloves and would sell it on agon when I'm through being disappointed w/ its sound.

 

Make, and model please.

[Deang]

5 minutes ago, Don Richard said:

 

I do not think anyone is advising a person to actually set up a DBT on their own when making an equipment purchase. However, looking at the results of some blind tests may help a person with their decision, as well as considering testimonials, specs, price, and of course, personal listening evaluations.

The OP is. Do I really have to go back through 30 pages and find all of the times he said it?