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ILI

Is bi-wiring worthwhile? (not bi-amping)

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On 8/28/2019 at 4:30 AM, ILI said:

 

  • I was wondering if bi-wiring this combo would further improve the sound quality. I plan to test this myself one of these days. Reports on the internet are mostly that the effect is very limited. What is your experience with bi-wiring.

 

I don't think so, as long as your wire is large enough for the distance to the amp.  A little oversize on the wire is not too expensive and won't hurt.  You should try it for yourself. 

 

I'm running home-made braided Cat5 across the front 3.  It is 11 ga. equivalent.  Couldn't hear any difference on the La Scalas, could hear a difference through the old KLF-C7.  Prolly 'cause the midrange impedance of a La Scala is high compared to the wire so the %-age reduction was inignificant.  Can't say whether it was better, but it was different.  Plenum rated Cat5/6 has very low capacitance and inductance and twisting and braiding further reduces inductance, or at least doesn't increase it.  Those properties make it theoretically the best cable (low R, C & L).  But I also failed a double-blind comparison test at Indy during an early Pilgrimage. 

 

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54 minutes ago, JohnA said:

But I also failed a double-blind comparison test at Indy during an early Pilgrimage. 

 

Should've said that first, not last.  :^)

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On 8/31/2019 at 9:58 AM, mboxler said:

I bi-wire as well, and like the results. 

 

One of these days I want to re-install the shorting straps with the bi-wire cable connected and see if the sound changes.

 

I did a variation of that.

 

I put RP-600M's on top of RF-83's, kept the strap on both, and used the Marantz 6011 in bi-amp mode.  My thinking was the 600M's have an extended HF (to 25 Khz) and the book on the RF-83's is solid well balanced bass and mid-bass but the HF is too mellow.  I was predicting an overall sound which was brighter and more dynamic.

 

591494550_RP-600Mbi-amprightsideview_800.thumb.jpg.b8712124600503367435c1ae83b68773.jpg

 

Any guesses how the sound changed?

 

Spoiler

I found the RP-600M's did not add much on the HF end and I expected they would.  There is no question the vertical off-axis dispersion was better.  It did not change anything at the MLP.   The sound was nice but maybe overall a little more mellow.  I think anytime you use an extra channel you lose some dynamics because the power is further divided.

 

My conclusion is the 600M's sound great, the RF-83 sounds better than the 600M's and combining them with both straps connected and bi-amped did not make the overall sound any better. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, wvu80 said:

 

 

591494550_RP-600Mbi-amprightsideview_800.thumb.jpg.b8712124600503367435c1ae83b68773.jpg

 

Any guesses how the sound changed?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I found the RP-600M's did not add much on the HF end and I expected they would.  There is no question the vertical off-axis dispersion was better.  It did not change anything at the MLP.   The sound was nice but maybe overall a little more mellow.  I think anytime you use an extra channel you lose some dynamics because the power is further divided.

 

My conclusion is the 600M's sound great, the RF-83 sounds better than the 600M's and combining them with both straps connected and bi-amped did not make the overall sound any better. 

 

 

 

That's a really nice feature! (hidden contents). Wasn't aware it exists up to now... 

 

Those RF83s are huge compared to the RP600Ms. Thank you for posting this. I've been listening to bi-wired speakers for two weeks now, so today I'll switch back to one wire. Lets see if my brain hears any difference.

 

note:

What are the smare black cones in your picture, to the left and right of the centerspeaker? I have not a clue.

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I tried bi-wiring a pair of PSB Stratus Silver i’s years ago, after my Polk days, but before the dawn of horns, lol.

 

I always use the shortest equal run of wire possible. I think at that time it was 14 gauge Monster cable about 10 feet long off the back of a NAD C370.

 

I really wanted to hear a difference, but could not. 

 

When I bi-amped them (two NAD C370’s) it was night and day. That is how they stayed until I entered my pre-Klipsch Cerwin Vega phase (CLSC-215’s!) that marked the end of my pursuit for the “studio sound”, and navel gazing...

 

I have never been in a studio with a band, I have heard a few live though!

 

Two weeks is a good aural burn in time, curious what your findings are!

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On 9/8/2019 at 3:05 AM, ILI said:

What are the smare black cones in your picture, to the left and right of the centerspeaker? I have not a clue.

Risers for a bed, usually a college bed for more storage.  About $10 for four at Walmart.

 

In my case as @glens suggested they get the TV high enough over the cab so I can put the RC-64 III underneath.

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After 3 weeks of biwiring I returned to single wires.

I can hear little difference. If there is, it is a slightly wider soundstage.

Will use the wires for some open baffle experiments and may well put them back after that. 

Thanks for all the input! Learned a lot! 

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I still haven't taken the time to perform critical experimentation.  Very little, if any, jumped out at me at first.  It'll be interesting to play with but I'll likely leave the extra wire in use just because it's a pain in the *** getting to and snaking them.  I won't forget to report any findings but y'all might forget in the mean time. 

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On 9/14/2019 at 10:12 AM, ILI said:

After 3 weeks of biwiring I returned to single wires.

I can hear little difference. If there is, it is a slightly wider soundstage.

Will use the wires for some open baffle experiments and may well put them back after that. 

Thanks for all the input! Learned a lot! 

 

Another Update...

Well, we're one week later and this morning I cut some wire and went back to bi-wiring my speakers.

It does add that little extra, in my opinion, and with high efficient klipsch speakers, this is the way to go. I recently bought Pink Floyd's The Wall, and biwiring makes this already well sounding album sound slightly different: it is better balanced between the highs and the lows.

This is the way it's going to stay now.

 

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Interesting... I guess the treble electrons don't like the big fat bass electrons running next to them. They can be bullies!

😁

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I have not read any post on using an electronic XO and measurements to align the drivers.  Using a passive XO system results in the excess energy from the amp dissipating in heat.  The tweeter needs very little power compared to the woofer.  I've tried it and switched back to one wire of a nice gauge  and sold the extra amp, he, he.🤑 

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On 9/7/2019 at 6:03 PM, wvu80 said:

 

I did a variation of that.

 

I put RP-600M's on top of RF-83's, kept the strap on both, and used the Marantz 6011 in bi-amp mode.  My thinking was the 600M's have an extended HF (to 25 Khz) and the book on the RF-83's is solid well balanced bass and mid-bass but the HF is too mellow.  I was predicting an overall sound which was brighter and more dynamic.

 

591494550_RP-600Mbi-amprightsideview_800.thumb.jpg.b8712124600503367435c1ae83b68773.jpg

 

Any guesses how the sound changed?

 

  Hide contents

I found the RP-600M's did not add much on the HF end and I expected they would.  There is no question the vertical off-axis dispersion was better.  It did not change anything at the MLP.   The sound was nice but maybe overall a little more mellow.  I think anytime you use an extra channel you lose some dynamics because the power is further divided.

 

My conclusion is the 600M's sound great, the RF-83 sounds better than the 600M's and combining them with both straps connected and bi-amped did not make the overall sound any better. 

 

 

I would guess the 83s have a bigger sound but how do the highs compare? I know like you said the 600s go higher but I also know theres not a lot up that high. Which do you prefer? 

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12 hours ago, mr clean said:

I would guess the 83s have a bigger sound but how do the highs compare? I know like you said the 600s go higher but I also know theres not a lot up that high.

Which do you prefer? 

The RF-83's, no doubt.  They have a wonderful full sound and the sound is more balanced at both low and high SPL.

 

Your guess that the 83's have a bigger sound is spot on.  I thought the highs on both were about equal, at least to these aged ears which don't hear HF like they used to.

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On 9/23/2019 at 12:14 AM, ILI said:

 

Another Update...

Well, we're one week later and this morning I cut some wire and went back to bi-wiring my speakers.

It does add that little extra, in my opinion, and with high efficient klipsch speakers, this is the way to go. I recently bought Pink Floyd's The Wall, and biwiring makes this already well sounding album sound slightly different: it is better balanced between the highs and the lows.

This is the way it's going to stay now.

 

I bet using silver plated copper wire would make a bigger sonic difference than a bi-wire setup.

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Any onclusions to draw from this thread? 😉

 

 

I have some Wharfedale Denton 80s. Great speakers, btw!

 

They have two sets of binding posts, but I’m baffled as to how bi-wiring could make a difference.

 

if someone can sell me on the idea, please do. 😀

 

 

 

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On 8/29/2019 at 1:40 PM, glens said:

Actually, unless it is bi-amplification in which there is a low-level crossover prior to the separate amplifiers, the signal going to both the (single-cabinet) speaker inputs on a (single) channel has the exact(ly-enough) same full-range potential available at the speaker, which means that both wire pairs do indeed carry the same full-range signal all the way to both halves of the crossover at the speaker cabinet(s), where the unused portions of the signal on a given wire "simply go away" (or more properly, simply don't have full effect).  But it's not by magic. 

I don't remember why I did not refute this when it was posted as a response to my post about bi wiring:

 

On 8/29/2019 at 9:00 AM, babadono said:

Yes it cannot hurt to do it(except the cash out of your pocket for more wire). Your speakers, crossovers, wires and amp are a system. In a single wire setup all the energy at all frequencies go down the same wire  where they get separated by the crossover and then are fed to the drivers. In a biwire system the low frequency and high frequency energy go down the two separate wires. I think sometimes there is a misconception that the energy of all frequencies goes down both wires in a biwire system and then when it gets to the crossover the low frequency energy that arrives at the high side crossover just magically goes away. And vice versa for the high frequency energy at the low side crossover. I have seen papers that show measurements of small amounts of IM distortion that are eliminated by biwiring because the low and high frequency energy are not traveling on the same wire.

Now that said can you hear it? I think only your ears can tell you that. Or do you just want to hear a difference because you spent more money on wire?

So one of us is not thinking correctly. It's probably me but I would like to see the proof. It would be an interesting experiment.

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Haha!  I can't remember why I didn't refute that when it was posted!

 

As I'd said, the potential energy at all frequencies ends up at both (separate, and separately fed) crossover input terminals.  The impedance is so high for the unused portion (either way) that the energy merely goes unused for all intent and purposes.  So it does effectively "just go away."

 

As to the "common-wire IM," well, what about the internal wiring in the amplifier?  I've seen probably the same "look at the IM" graphs you've seen, and I merely shrugged my shoulders at the author's inability to understand why they appear that way (hopefully he wasn't merely being dishonest).  If there's IM being generated in a common wire (or transistor lead), it's already been introduced within the amplifier and no amount of separate external wire will make it go away!

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On 10/12/2019 at 2:17 AM, MechEngVic said:

I bet using silver plated copper wire would make a bigger sonic difference than a bi-wire setup.

Yes bought up all the Carol silver ETP I could find when it was disappearing.  Have rolls of it.  A significant uncongested sound compared to many expensive pure copper wires.  Highs are much better.

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2 hours ago, pzannucci said:

A significant uncongested sound compared to many expensive pure copper wires.  Highs are much better.

 

Even during / after repeated comparison both ways?  Just curious as to the extent of your acquired experience in reaching that determination.  Not calling you out on it.

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