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angelaudio

toe in vs toe out ?

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I noticed two of my audiophile friends listen to their music with the speakers toe out. One has a large listening area and his Heresy IV speakers which filled the entire room better than I thought. My other friend has another kind of speaker but also does toe out. Me on the other hand, I prefer toe in because I literally sit for many hours listening to my music in a chair and I want to hear all the dynamics and details as much as possible. So I ask myself....if an audiophile is striving after detail in their music, why are they using the toe out method? I can understand if it's just for general listening and walking around the room but it just seems so odd to spend all this money, time and work achieving the goals of sound and defeat it by using the toe out position. My other friend has an Elac Debut 2.0. To me, they are power hoggs and they have no dynamics. It reminds me of a horn with a sock stuffed in it, so I'm sitting in a chair listening to these things toe out and when I lean my ears far to one side to hear the speaker more directly, I can clearly hear more details! Well! there's all your details being pis............. away. So, what am I missing here? 

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+1 for toe out...

 

what you're missing?

you are missing that there is NOT one way but many ways.

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Posted (edited)

Certainly it's all subjective. What I'm trying to understand is do others feel the details of the music are better toe out than toe in? I just don't understand what the listener is striving for. 

Edited by angelaudio

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Certain speakers towed in BEAM like a laser into your brain can even be un-listenable if your hearing is sensitive enough. In those cases Toe out puts the listener off axis making listening more enjoyable. I have had both over the years. It is 100% listener dictated. IMHO

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Posted (edited)

Wow, I've never seen that paper. I'm gonna print that out, thanks for sharing. That's another thing I forgot to mention which is stereo imaging too which Paul K mentions in this paper. For me I just don't get the toe out thing.  For me personally it's like a waste of the dynamics I paid a lot of money for unless I'm having a party with guests over I suppose. Certainly others are entitled to their opinions, but I just don't understand the advantage of the sound using toe out.

Edited by angelaudio

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, joessportster said:

Certain speakers towed in BEAM like a laser into your brain can even be un-listenable if your hearing is sensitive enough. In those cases Toe out puts the listener off axis making listening more enjoyable. I have had both over the years. It is 100% listener dictated. IMHO

 

I suppose if I was hearing sensitive, I would just lower the volume. The reason I spent more money on better amps is to hear more details so the music is more enjoyable. I want to hear all the details in the music as clearly as possible. The impression of the music when I toe out is I'm defeating that. What baffles me is why pay for that and then position the speaker in such a manner that defeats it. Do others argue that the dynamics are actually better toe out or are they just not after dynamics? I'm a total novice. 

Edited by angelaudio
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Just now, angelaudio said:

 

I suppose if I was hearing sensitive, I would just lower the volume.

Volume has very little to do with it. Its the way the speaker projects the Freq.

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Toed in(slightly) for my sweet spot and toed out for multi listeners all purpose area.

 

Bill

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6 minutes ago, joessportster said:

Volume has very little to do with it. Its the way the speaker projects the Freq.

 

I think I see what you are saying. It may sound a little overwhelming. 

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Toe-in is not synonymous with "on-axis".  In fact, PWK was stating that the optimum geometry in-room is 45 degrees of toe-in.  That's usually enough to put the centerline crossing point of stereo loudspeakers in front of the listeners.

 

Here's another discussion of toe-in of horn-loaded loudspeakers, assembled by Bill Waslo (of Liberty Instruments fame):  https://community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=155810

 

Chris

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Toe-out makes steering response more sensitive and less stable.   😉

 

 

 

 

Many speakers have a response curve that rises with increasing frequency.  Toeing out puts the listener off-axis where the response normally falls with increasing frequency.  That may make the speaker sound more pleasing and why your friend likes it.  There is some research out there saying more people prefer the falling response, to the tune of about 3 dB/octave. 

 

OTOH, toeing out throws more energy into the reflected sound/reverberant field, re:Blose.  Reduced reflected sound has been a stated objective of Klipsch for decades.  You paid for them, place them as you like. 

 

 

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Why not ask your friends why they position their speakers like that, instead of guessing?  Their reasons could be interesting.

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Thanks for the feedback guys. Yes, I will discuss it in further depth with them. Those Paul W Klipsch essays are amazing sources. The man was quite a genius. 

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On 5/30/2020 at 11:33 AM, willland said:

Toed in(slightly) for my sweet spot and toed out for multi listeners all purpose area.

 

Bill

 

23 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

Toe in

 

On 5/30/2020 at 12:15 PM, Chris A said:

 

Toe-in is not synonymous with "on-axis".  In fact, PWK was stating that the optimum geometry in-room is 45 degrees of toe-in.  That's usually enough to put the centerline crossing point of stereo loudspeakers in front of the listeners.

 

Here's another discussion of toe-in of horn-loaded loudspeakers, assembled by Bill Waslo (of Liberty Instruments fame):  https://community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=155810

 

Chris

3 out of 3 ----

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You put your left toe in

You put your right toe out

And then you shake it all around.

That's what it's all about.

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45 degrees toed in. Pointing right at your face. If the speaker is too bright, it's not the position's fault. Your system needs tuning.

 

Toeing out will create tons of reflections, and that's mostly what you'll hear. You'll only hear off-axis sound coming directly from the speakers. This might create an interesting ambient sound that is pleasant, but it won't be accurate sound reproduction. 

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Lol... funny stuff

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I don't have enough room to toe in my whole box behind my screen... can I just toe the horn (K510) on top of the box? 

 

Horn is XO at 600Hz LR 48db/Octave 

 

 

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