DrWho Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Since you've "designed hundreds of crossovers", why don't you design one for us. I'd be happy to build it and send it out for the listening tests I do. They use opamps, which you're already predisposed to hating This is a fact that has consistently been demonstrated at the various Gatherings. Expectation bias is a powerful influence. Btw, I'm not arguing the better aspect when an old network isn't meeting specifications - which is the majority of what you do. What I am arguing for is the next level of performance that doesn't get discussed, and is usually beaten down in favor of maintaining the status quo. I'm not interested in the image of refinement....and I don't think I should be faulted for wanting to push the envelope. There has a been a lot of various data posted on this site related to horns, drivers, tweeters, and crossovers. If you missed that, then I guess you were sleeping. Hey, maybe if you say it enough times that'll turn out to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Good grief. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) Good grief. C.B. Quoted for truth... Edited June 3, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Good grief. C.B. Quoted for truth... As you might have guessed, things did not turn out well for Charlie Brown. You can't pile that much on to one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cradeldorf Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 War games reference: The only way to win is to not play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Those high end crossovers look very good. I have not heard one, but see many positive comments about these products, and reading through forum archives I see that the builders and members have generously shared their technical expertise with the community for many years. Higher quality parts usually corrolate to improved performance, and the cost vs. benefit ratio is ultimately determined by the consumer. Potential buyers could benefit from seeing simple frequency response charts with crossover slopes, new vs. old comparison graphs, etc. Visual aids sometimes help people understand the science. Reading many of the crossover threads on the forum and from my experience, I have the opinion that anechoic chamber testing and design can lead to systems that sound harsh in average size, reflective rooms. So the aftermarket crossover builders are offering products/solutions for the real world of resonant listening rooms. The high end crossover builders also offer premium quality upgrades for people who want the best speakers, and at significantly less total cost than many of the so called "exotic audiophile" speakers. Just sharing my thoughts, I am not affiliated with any forum members, products or enterprises discussed on the forum.Before learning about the forum, I had some frequency response issues in my listening room and knew that my La Scalas sounded better outdoors. So I approached my situation as a room problem and used acoustic tile, panels and bass traps to get smooth sound from my horn speakers, but a plug and play crossover is much easier to install and if it helps you, is probably "worth it". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I am interested... how would seeing a slope chart/graph tell you how good or bad a XO sounded? Wont that merely tell you the characteristics of the interesction versus how sonically or musically the sound is being transmitted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) ...Just sharing my thoughts, I am not affiliated with any forum members, products or enterprises discussed on the forum. Before learning about the forum, I had some frequency response issues in my listening room and knew that my La Scalas sounded better outdoors. So I approached my situation as a room problem and used acoustic tile, panels and bass traps to get smooth sound from my horn speakers, but a plug and play crossover is much easier to install and if it helps you, is probably "worth it". It seems that "the Room" has the largest influence on speakers from everything I've read online. Edited June 7, 2014 by tkdamerica 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 While amplifiers certainly sound different, and some sound better than others with these speakers, I can also say I've heard some tube amps fall flat compared to some well executed solid state. No matter, in the end, it will be the network that has a larger impact on the sonic signature of the loudspeaker than the amplifier you choose. Amen, brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) ...And secondly, the louder it is at your ear, the less sensitive you are to differences. Your hearing gets "swamped" you could say. As for differentiating, there's an ideal loudness. Too soft is hard to tell differences, and too loud is hard to tell differences.... Crossovers have an almost impossible mission to fill. They must blend the drivers to make them sound as one.... Thanks for your response. Fwiw, it seems the Klipsch crossovers in my RF-7 are working well enough for my satisfaction (understatement), but If I were to consider anything that would be a sonic "upgrade" and comparing. are you also saying that I would want to level match 2 speakers (crossovers changed in one) and audition them at several volumes to try and notice the subtle (and not so subtle) differences? { EDIT: I realize that this is a different question than what you were addressing above.} {2nd EDIT: I also routinely use an SPL meter when listening to material on my speakers to see how loud I actually listen but also to give me a reference point when I am comparing other systems and/or components.] Edited June 7, 2014 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I am interested... how would seeing a slope chart/graph tell you how good or bad a XO sounded? Wont that merely tell you the characteristics of the interesction versus how sonically or musically the sound is being transmitted? Charts and graphs will not tell someone how good or bad something sounds, but the measured response of a speaker documented on a chart or graph can give readers a representative image of the frequency response characteristics of that speaker and anything inserted into the signal path that affects the sonic output of that speaker. That documentation offers an outside observer a universally accepted standard of reference with which they can make a preliminary judgement of that component's potential suitability to an application. The characteristics of the crossover slope "intersection" is not too important, but all the overlapping frequencies above and below that point have an effect on the speaker output. A few posts back, forum member mdeenen gave an excellent description of this significant process that he calls "blending." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 In some circumstances. For instance, if you make a room large enough*, and you place the listener far enough back in that large room, most speakers will become indistinguishable from each other. Whereas the opposite holds true in near-field listening where even the smallest difference is easily heard. At the other extreme of direct to reverberant sound ratios you speak of, would be in-ear headphones, where the ambient noise and reverberations is inaudible. Seems like recording studios have a preference for those near field monitors you speak of, which is not how a typical Klipsch listener attempts to reproduce the sound of a live band. Lots of letters between A and Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Well I know this will make me unpopular and I mean no offense by it or anything, but I didn't hear any difference at all when the fancy crossovers were dropped in (don't think I was the only one either)...though there was a great deal of time inbetween. Awesome! Just when I thought I needed to spend some money on refreshing my '81 crossovers, Dr. Who saves me a mint. I thought everything sounded just fine and now I know it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vnzbd Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 For the camp that falls into the highend crossover are worth it I would ask the question why not remove the passive and go to active crossovers? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 For the camp that falls into the highend crossover are worth it I would ask the question why not remove the passive and go to active crossovers? Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) For the camp that falls into the highend crossover are worth it I would ask the question why not remove the passive and go to active crossovers? why not just leave it passive and enjoy it? lowest common denominator is NOT always the correct answer. Edited June 9, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vnzbd Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 "why not just not leave it passive and enjoy it?" Fair question but once you have decided to tweak why not go active. It would seem to me that there are positives in going that way as well. You would be removing any power loss that the passive might absorb, no need to worry about which capacitor is better and depending on which active crossover is used level, phase and frequency controls would be at your finger tips. I do see the additional cost for amplification but when most off us own enough gear for multiple systems....... "lowest common denominator is NOT always the correct answer." I can't say that I understand that comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) For the camp that falls into the highend crossover are worth it I would ask the question why not remove the passive and go to active crossovers? Exactly. Exactly Exactly...................but don't we all love getting burned by a soldering iron? Don't we love the hysteresis of iron core inductors or paying for the 5 lbs of copper in Litz Air cores instead? If that's not enough, we can all enjoy the wonderful parasitic deviations inherent in capacitors in the signal path with the highest current in the audio chain while resistors or tubes turn the precious watts into space heaters instead of sound? But don't worry, there's lots of "HIGH END" direct radiator systems at Hi Fi shows that cost as much as a car that will have enough AM and FM distortions to overwhelm anything passive or active anyhow in the world of "Hi End" audio. Besides, look at how cool those woofers look when they move back forth producing all those overwhelming distortions while all the rich buyers ignore their room acoustics entirely when they brag about the price tags of their pretty gear. Besides that, a "monobloc" is just a way of taking one channel away from a stereo amp, doubling the price, and forcing you to buy at least two, so you pay 4X more for those precious audio watts. God bless America. Edited June 9, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) To answer the OP: YES, it has to be. Otherwise, it's known as "buyer's remorse." One man's ceiling is anothe man's floor............Paul Simon One man's drink is another man's poison................??? Edited June 9, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 For the camp that falls into the highend crossover are worth it I would ask the question why not remove the passive and go to active crossovers? Because most people want to retain the high SNR ratios and overall high signal quality instead of running them through an $80 electronic X-over. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.