Anyone Care to Elaborate

[Jeff Matthews]

Okay, so I've come to see that 60-watts will produce equal slam, dynamics as my 310-watt Crown - so long as you have a good "first watt."

Somebody who knows (I'd bet NosValves knows) - pease answer this. What components or specs of a good 60-watt amp make it have faster, punchier slam than say, a 60-watt HT receiver?

[Frzninvt]

Alot of it falls back on very capable power supplies and the supporting capacitance banks. It takes power to make power. Some of these so called 7 channel amps that have a single wimpy power supply and supporting capacitors that weigh it at like 40 pounds or so are a prime example of how not to do it.

Tube amplifiers are current sourced and sound more powerful than SS amps that are much larger. At least to my ear they do. For example the McIntosh MC-30's I had sounded equally as powerful, just as clean and smooth as the $5K DBX BX1 Reference Power Amplifiers that I had. I thought it was amazing that they could accomplish that.

[D-MAN]

300 watts is only twice as loud as 30 watts. That's the honest truth of the matter, and why you are confused.

The wattage output while it seems linear is actually logarythmic.

DM

[Jeff Matthews]

Alot of it falls back on very capable power supplies and the supporting capacitance banks. It takes power to make power. Some of these so called 7 channel amps that have a single wimpy power supply and supporting capacitors that weigh it at like 40 pounds or so are a prime example of how not to do it.

Tube amplifiers are current sourced and sound more powerful than SS amps that are much larger. At least to my ear they do. For example the McIntosh MC-30's I had sounded equally as powerful, just as clean and smooth as the $5K DBX BX1 Reference Power Amplifiers that I had. I thought it was amazing that they could accomplish that.

D-Man: I know that now and am not confused anymore. I am confused about what makes the difference, other than wattage - because I've seen 60-watt winkies and 60-watt slammers.

Frzn: Thanks. 2 follow-ups: Are the power supply and capacitance banks the main difference? The reason I ask is because I thought these components were relatively inexpensive and certainly not enough to transform a $500 receiver into a $2500 amp.

Second, what specs in a power supply and capacitance would you look at as a standard for reference? I'm just wondering if there are any specs along these lines that are included with specifications sheets that typically come with amps/receivers.

I should look for power supplies that have...... (you name it).

I should look for (you name it) to know if the amp/receiver has good supporting capacitance banks.

[D-MAN]

Frzn is absolutely spot-on. The power supply is the reason.

This may be somewhat lame of me, but as a general statistical indicator, the heavier the weight of the amp, the more robust the PS is likely to be, and the likelyhood of dynamic headroom and "slam" capability is increased. As a simplistic rule-of-thumb, the size (and wieght) of the PS transformer is a likely candidate as to the capabilities of the supply. It may also be an indicator of general parts quality too, in that the more robust physicality of the AC transformer is more expensive to manufacture and ship and therefore costs more to use. Torroidals tend to blow this theory, though.

Sort of like the knob-to-dollar ratio.

DM

[Cal Blacksmith]

Frzn is absolutely spot-on. The power supply is the reason.

This may be somewhat lame of me, but as a general statistical indicator, the heavier the weight of the amp, the more robust the PS is likely to be, and the likelyhood of dynamic headroom and "slam" capability is increased.

Sort of like the knob-to-dollar ratio.

DM

Which is inverted, right? Less knobs, more dollars[]

[D-MAN]

When I was in the service, it was highly desirable to attain a high knob count to low dollar amount.

I specifically used to pick up Marantz stuff overseas (USN) that displayed an enticing knob-to-dollar ratio to "unload" on friends at home. This ratio specifically refers to integrated amps, of course, but also worked well for reel-to-reels and preamps to.

DM

[Jeff Matthews]

Frzn is absolutely spot-on. The power supply is the reason.

This may be somewhat lame of me, but as a general statistical indicator, the heavier the weight of the amp, the more robust the PS is likely to be, and the likelyhood of dynamic headroom and "slam" capability is increased.

DM

Double spot-on, then! That explains to me what I said early, early on about auditioning the KHorns I bought.

The seller tried to demo them for me through a Marantz receiver, which I just "knew" was not going to let the KHorns shine. I knew it because I've seen this lackluster performance of receivers matched w/Klipsch on a number of occasions.

When the Marantz did not cut it, I milled around the seller's rooms full of hi-fi and eye-balled a rackable amp (I think Definitive). I lifted it, and it was heavy. It took both hands - unlike the Marantz that you could carry cradled against your hip in one arm.

That amp did the trick.

So, instead of knowing what specs you'd look for on paper, I guess I could probably go by the old "weight" rule of thumb.

[3dzapper]

Let's throw some more parts into the mix. An amp even with a farad of capacitance will sag if the power transformer is not large enough to supply the current required by the outputs. A choke also store energy, releasing it into the caps downstream as the voltage sags due to a large transient. The diode must have a current rating which allows the choke and caps to remain fully charged. The quality of the caps in their ability to release stored energy plays a part.

IOW the reason that amp A costs ten times amp B is the design, parts selection and quality of the installed parts.

Weight is just weight not an indicator of quality.

Rick

[Z4!]

The power supply in a receiver is also being shared by the preamp section and the tuner section.

The power supply in an amp is there for the amp alone...mono-blocks are better yet! []

[laurenc319]

this may be simplistic, but I turn the amp off and see how long it still plays. The longer the better.

Larry

[Jeff Matthews]

this may be simplistic, but I turn the amp off and see how long it still plays. The longer the better.

Larry

Is there a joke in there? If not, please explain.

[seti]

this may be simplistic, but I turn the amp off and see how long it still plays. The longer the better.

Larry

I hadn't heard that one before. With my canary audio and wright pre it will play for a while or until I power off cdp. I just thought it was a characteristic of tube gear not quality. Interesting.

[laurenc319]

no joke, the longer it plays... the bigger the caps and transformers , more stored current to work with transients

I sure the techi types will slay this, it's just an observation I've made over many years. kind of like how much it weighs

[ranjith]

Is there a math as how to how much 1watt of tube power converts to in SS power?? I thought I read about it on some website awhile ago, but I wasn't sure.

[Fish]

I'm not sure if its a quality guage(at least the last word)but my old

B&K runs about 8-10 seconds after I switch it off.Its got

caps that look like oil filters.

[edwinr]

You're going to wear yourself out, Jeff! []

[Spkrdctr]

Well, I'll give you some good ideas. First you can't apply these ideas to a digital Class D amp or a marketing hype class T amp[]. Tthe size of the power supply will determine the current capacity, also, you want to look through the top heat vents and look at the transistors attached to the main heat sink, if they are all 1/4 inch square in size, they are the standard HT reciever type (low to midrange current) devices, if they are around 1.25 inch in size (square), then you have high current devices. I have found that almost all of the time, the manufacturers with high current devices put in high current diodes as they are very inexpensive. Capacitors I would not worry about, in that most of the companies that build quality amps, put in a high quality power circuit throughout. It is really a matter of just paying a reputable company the higher price for a good product. For example, Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood, JVC and most Yamaha HT recievers have run of the mill power supplies in them. Most of the pre-amp/amp manufacturers have the larger power supply circuit in them, so they are much more expensive. Remember, this is all generalizing of course. I hope it helps!

Oh, I talk current in the above example, only because again, the higher dollar equipment usually has the higher voltage that you want for better performance. This being the main reason you get better slam out of higher end equipment. It is not because of higher current. (I love goring that old ill-informed worn out ox.......)

If anyone wants all of the above in engineering terms with pictures, please see Dr. Who. I'm way to overworked to do the heavy lifting![]

[3dzapper]

this may be simplistic, but I turn the amp off and see how long it still plays. The longer the better.

Larry

That might not hold true for most SS equipment. The speaker protection relays open when the power switch is pressed to prevent huge transients destroying the drivers.

Rick

[PrestonTom]

no joke, the longer it plays... the bigger the caps and transformers , more stored current to work with transients

I sure the techi types will slay this, it's just an observation I've made over many years. kind of like how much it weighs

You are absolutely correct! It is not so much the transformers (which give the weight) but rather the capacitors.

However, there are some modern circuits that provide protection from start up transients that may actually cutoff the sound, so you may not hear the extra 10 seconds of sound.

Incidentally, a well built power supply in an amp (beefed up transformer and capacitors) negates the "need" for any sort of exotic power conditioners. Power anomalies, are seldom as severe as the power cutting out for a half a second.

Good Luck,

-Tom