SETs vs old SS � Listening experiments

[seti]

Allen Organ Monoblocks

I have a pair of Allen Organ amps as well they are huge and each uses a quad of 6L6's a pair of 6SN7's, a pair of 5U4's a OD3 voltage regulator the output is potted it is apprx. 6in X 6in X 6in the amps need minor work. But I'm told they run! I am looking to sell them! As I am into SET's If I get them up and running I will ask more than double for what I paid for them but I would let them go for what I got in them plus shipping which is 400$

If anyone is interested in them I will guarantee the Iron and would replace anything faulty by a match pair of Hammond equivalent or a cash settlement of replacement value of the Hammond line.

SET12

SET12,

Do they have a odel #? The two I picked up are Allen 90 made by Webster Electric. My tube compliment is only a little different 2x kt88/6550 2x 5r4gy 2x 6sn7 2x 0d3 1x 12au7 per monoblock. I should be able to lite up the room. I was told they made an 0D3 without the can and it glows a bright purple but I have yet to find any of these tubes. The iron in these beasts are huge!

[SET12]

I just took a look! No model #! It is just stamped in black ink ALLEN ORGAN CO the chassis the potted outputs are stamped in white letters AIRDESIGN 0-40112 the amps are in really nice shape better I think then what I see in your pictures and thats likely mostly dust that I see in yours and I guess it uses a pair 5R4's, Not the 5U4's that I thought it did, I have a few schematics for Allens but not these I was pretty close in remembering the size of the outputs I measured them they are 6in X 5in X 6in the guy that had them had a group of 4, These were out of a church here in WI, Which he had removed them, I bought them then, I've had them siting for about 4 yrs at least they need a couple of chokes as one is missing and I think replacing the supply caps would be in order for long term operation I don't think replacing the coupling caps wouldn't be a bad idea either other than that they are suppose to run and they are suppose to run with just replacing the missing choke they look real good I can borrow a camera and post some pictures if some one has an interest in them. They are also on a chassis 10in deep by 17 in wide I would provide all good tubes but the 6L6's.

SET12

P.S. Yes the OD3 does glow purple you'll love that!

Oh yah! I have a friend a 35yr Audiophile that owns a pair of Allens I heard them in a store with the famous Genelex KT88's in them as well as KT90's, Warm powerfull and inolveing I told my friend about them! He went and listened to them and couldn't leave the store with out buying them!

[garyrc]

Thanks, Mike (Dr. Who). I like your posts too. You, Pauln, or someone else on the forum, may be able to answer the following questions:

1) What ever happened to TIM distortion? Do people still measure it?

2) Some amps seem to lack authority (and bass) in climaxes, compared to other amps, but I really don't think they have exhausted their power (unlikely with Khorns!). Any idea what's happening?

3) Does anyone measure something that could be called, for want of a better term, "Dynamic Frequency Response?" If very loud pulses (below maximum peak level for the component) of various frequencies, equal in intensity, are fed through an amp or a speaker, and the output plotted, is the result as flat as a garden variety frequency response curve done at a more moderate level? At least one amp (a c1974 Marantz 80 wpc solid state power amp), and a few speakers with cone or dome midrange and HF drivers seem to "thin out" when reproducing very loud transients.

[leok]

Garyrc,

I think the thinning out with crescendos it the old intermodulation distortion problem. With simpler material there isn't too much intermodulation distortion because there aren't that many frequencies (fundamentals and harmonics) that can intermodulate each other. However, when things get loud and crashy there's a lot going on .. more top end as instruments are pushed harder and upper harmonics are stronger and there are more of them. All of those frequencies intermodulate and the mids and highs get very loud and congested, filled with distortion products, swamping the bass, making things sound harsh and thin. Even with very loud passages, the highs still don't use much power so the low power characteristics of the amp still have substantial impact on how they sound. Low distortion at high power is good, but low distortion at low power is a must, and not always obtained.

Leo

[seti]

I just took a look! No model #! It is just stamped in black ink ALLEN ORGAN CO the chassis the potted outputs are stamped in white letters AIRDESIGN 0-40112 the amps are in really nice shape better I think then what I see in your pictures and thats likely mostly dust that I see in yours and I guess it uses a pair 5R4's, Not the 5U4's that I thought it did, I have a few schematics for Allens but not these I was pretty close in remembering the size of the outputs I measured them they are 6in X 5in X 6in the guy that had them had a group of 4, These were out of a church here in WI, Which he had removed them, I bought them then, I've had them siting for about 4 yrs at least they need a couple of chokes as one is missing and I think replacing the supply caps would be in order for long term operation I don't think replacing the coupling caps wouldn't be a bad idea either other than that they are suppose to run and they are suppose to run with just replacing the missing choke they look real good I can borrow a camera and post some pictures if some one has an interest in them. They are also on a chassis 10in deep by 17 in wide I would provide all good tubes but the 6L6's.

SET12

P.S. Yes the OD3 does glow purple you'll love that!

Oh yah! I have a friend a 35yr Audiophile that owns a pair of Allens I heard them in a store with the famous Genelex KT88's in them as well as KT90's, Warm powerfull and inolveing I told my friend about them! He went and listened to them and couldn't leave the store with out buying them!

I bought the Allens based on the size of the transformers and the interesting tube compliment. It is very asuring to know someone thought so well of them as mine are currently being built and I have not heard them yet. If I didn't have so many projects in the works I would have jumped at them. I would like to have a quad of genelex but the prices they fetch are just insane. Post some pics of them they sound interesting.

[pauln]

I hate E-bay, but I'll swallow my pride, I bid on the Yamaha 1020, it's worth $20. to me, although deep down I won't win................some creep will snipe me at the end.........Stop ,I can feel the whining already, maybe I'll run the price up.....................Relax, that's not my show.................Just a nice piece of equipment........Thanks for the tip, Pauln....................

Still at $20.50 with 5 days to go...

The CR1020 is worth between $127.50 and $356 according to this site:

http://www.classicaudio.com/value/yam/index.html

If you win it cheap, that would leave some margin if you needed to have someone take a look at it. The guy called ECHOWARS on the audiokarma site is an expert on vintage Yamaha and has done excellent work for dozens there.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/

I have a pdf file of the CR 1020 Service Manual and a large 14MByte zip file of the CR 1020 schematic if you need them. Neither will upload because of their size, but if you want them, let me know with a PM and I'll figure out how to get to you.

There are no manuals for the CR 1020 currently on the free Yamaha manual library site below, but they come and go, so you might check there periodically.

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/index.php

Hoping there is a happy ebay win in your future shortly,

Pauln

[pauln]

Speaking of ebay, I have a bid on a very desirable item that was miss-categorized as an appliance instead of vintage audio. I'm the only bidder so far, maybe no one else will find it 'till I win! If so, I will have much more to say later...

Pauln

[oldbuckster]

Pauln, thanks for the tip, rebid but must be other guy has higher figure in mind, by the time you add on shipping, not a good deal, but it is supposedly tested and serviced, well maybe I should rethink, or I have a chance for a 70's Sony Receiver locally, am working on that...............don't need it, but what the hey.................So hook up the old stuff, and let's hear what you find.....................

[Audible Nectar]

While we are on the subject of solid state, here's a couple more vintage brands (especially amps/receivers) that are VERY good on Klipsch:

Nakamichi - the "STASIS" amps and receivers in particular. Amplifiers based on the Nelson Pass (of Threshold fame) designs.

Luxman: Has been an old favorite of mine for years - the warm qualities of Luxman are very much at home on horns.

So give these a try if you are one of those wanting to sample some solid state options....

[SilverSport]

I'll second the Nakamichi STASIS that Nectar is talkin' 'bout...I have had 2 TA/2A "Tuner Amps" (bought brand new GF has one now and mine is now in the garage powering KSB 1.1s) and an SR-2A (sounded fine but is acting up...eBay "bargain" that was no bargain...) and ScorpsFan has 3 PA-7s (the BIG amps) for his Home Theater and 2 channel listening...sounded great with Heresys...Quartets, RB-5s, Klipschorns and even the KSF-S5s.

Bill

[pauln]

You know what they say, miss one bus - another will come. Here is a CR1020 at $.99 with one bid:

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAHA-CR-1020-STEREO-RECEIVER-VINTAGE-AND-NICE_W0QQitemZ190019526445QQihZ009QQcategoryZ50596QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Deang]

They're so great people are giving them away.

[IB Slammin]

They're so great people are giving them away.

[]

[Parrot]

SET vs. old SS:

And the answer is: Any old SS amp will crush any SET amp.

SET is lifeless, not only at high volumes but at low volumes too. It's not necessary to play a recording of a symphony at anywhere near a realistic level to figure that out.

If, if, there were something going on with SET at low levels that could not be rendered better by a push-pull or even some SS amp, then SET would merit some consideration. But it's always anemic, that's just the way it is.

SET has inverse bragging rights about being low-watt, but other than as a science demonstration, so what?

Every time I've heard SET being demonstrated for potential sale, it's always the same little girl jazz singer kind of material, maybe with someone tapping a couple bass strings or brushing a drum kit. SET is barely passable that way, if you want to restrict yourself to that kind of source music. If you put on anything with some energy, it comes out spiritless.

[seti]

SET vs. old SS:

And the answer is: Any old SS amp will crush any SET amp.

SET is lifeless, not only at high volumes but at low volumes too. It's not necessary to play a recording of a symphony at anywhere near a realistic level to figure that out.

If, if, there were something going on with SET at low levels that could not be rendered better by a push-pull or even some SS amp, then SET would merit some consideration. But it's always anemic, that's just the way it is.

SET has inverse bragging rights about being low-watt, but other than as a science demonstration, so what?

Every time I've heard SET being demonstrated for potential sale, it's always the same little girl jazz singer kind of material, maybe with someone tapping a couple bass strings or brushing a drum kit. SET is barely passable that way, if you want to restrict yourself to that kind of source music. If you put on anything with some energy, it comes out spiritless.

Now thats the SET bashing opinions we are acustomed to around here.

I couldn't disagree more but to each his own.

I have only heard two pairs of SET amps but my old Canary Audio 8wpc tube amps were more than capable of filling my room with beautiful music from Tom Waits to Primus. One day I will own a pair of those big triode tube amps based on the 845 or 211 and thats 10 to 30 wpc SET sound.

[SET12]

Parrot,

That was really good! Not only did it put a smile on my face but I called my girlfriend in to read your post! She doesn't know much about audio but she knows enough about my system and what its capable of as she's reading your post and commenting I'm laughing because even she knows that SET's are way more capable than the general analogy that you have stated of what you think a SET's performance is capable of!

As I have stated there is good and bad in every camp. It may be even harder to get great SET performace but it is not unobtainable, There maybe better average performance with push-pull tubes especially with bass performance but more mature listeners are usually more interested in information that lies in the 100 to 20000 hz range than 20 to 100 hz unless your're into Rap, And not that a SET can't work here, This 100 to 20000 hz range is where a SET can and often does accell.

I have owned and enjoyed some very good solid state amps but I have yet to enjoy one on a Klipsch whether new or old solid state. The Jollita's I had here were listenable but imformation deficent. And while were talking about old SS its funny how often my friends and I find 50 yr old tube gear still sounding modern and yet old SS often soundind more dated and sometimes down right nasty but not always and sometimes just boring! Because of their often mono chromatic harmonics in which tubes are just the opposite with PP or SET's. And with SET's even giving even more harmonic life!

As far as small scale dynamics and weak bass lines I don't like them either! But you won't find them in my SET's![]

SET12

[IB Slammin]

........."There maybe better average performance with push-pull tubes especially with bass performance but more mature listeners are usually more interested in information that lies in the 100 to 20000 hz range than 20 to 100 hz unless your're into Rap, And not that a SET can't work here, This 100 to 20000 hz range is where a SET can and often does accell".....

Not a SET bash. They do have their place as do PP and SS.

BUT, I believe that the more mature listeners as you say, are more interested in 20 to 20000 hz and are willing to run whatever amps it takes to get as close to that (as is affordable)

Now,...... lets talk about wire.[]

Regards,

Terry

[Marvel]

SET vs. old SS:

And the answer is: Any old SS amp will crush any SET amp.

SET is lifeless, not only at high volumes but at low volumes too. It's not necessary to play a recording of a symphony at anywhere near a realistic level to figure that out.

If, if, there were something going on with SET at low levels that could not be rendered better by a push-pull or even some SS amp, then SET would merit some consideration. But it's always anemic, that's just the way it is.

SET has inverse bragging rights about being low-watt, but other than as a science demonstration, so what?

Every time I've heard SET being demonstrated for potential sale, it's always the same little girl jazz singer kind of material, maybe with someone tapping a couple bass strings or brushing a drum kit. SET is barely passable that way, if you want to restrict yourself to that kind of source music. If you put on anything with some energy, it comes out spiritless.

Just finished listening to Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, w/Sir Colin Davis - LSO Live. Definitely not a "little girl jazz singer" CD. My "plays in an orchestra son" and I both agree that it sounded super on the Moondogs. Just proves once again Paul that you just want to incite folks to call you stupid. Do you enjoy that? Is it some fetish that you have?

[Parrot]

Just finished listening to Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, w/Sir Colin Davis - LSO Live. Definitely not a "little girl jazz singer" CD. My "plays in an orchestra son" and I both agree that it sounded super on the Moondogs. Just proves once again Paul that you just want to incite folks to call you stupid. Do you enjoy that? Is it some fetish that you have?

Now, now, there's no need to be rude. My fetishes are personal and have nothing to do with being degraded, humiliated, and walked on by SET amp owners wearing 6-inch high heels, I'll have you know.

Regardless, your anecdote proves nothing other than that you and your son like Moondogs.

[Parrot]

That was really good! Not only did it put a smile on my face but I called my girlfriend in to read your post! She doesn't know much about audio but she knows enough about my system and what its capable of as she's reading your post and commenting I'm laughing because even she knows that SET's are way more capable than the general analogy that you have stated of what you think a SET's performance is capable of!

You're welcome. Please give my regards to your girlfriend.