mike stehr Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Wotta frickin' mess. This thread turned into font stew or sumthin'...... 4 hours, 28 minutes ago 841592 in reply to 841575 canyonman Joined on 02-03-2006 New Orleans La Posts 570 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact I don't have a bass problem, but I am thinking about toeing in the top hats to get a better sound. Any opinions on this? Or would putting on backs like Roger did, and then toe them in? Jay SONY CD RCD W-500CSANSUI TU-710 TUNERMUSICAL FIDELITY X-10 v3ROGUE AUDIO 99 MAGNUM PRESOPHIA ELECTRIC 300B MKII AMPAUDIOQUEST IC'SAUDIOQUEST POWER CABLEANTHEM PRE-1 PHONO AMPLUXMAN PD 264/Shure M97xE CARTRIDGE KLIPSCH K-HORNS 1977 ALK XOVERS Report abuse Quick Reply 4 hours, 5 minutes ago 841603 in reply to 841592 IndyKlipschFan Joined on 03-18-2001 Indianapolis, Indiana Posts 4,551 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact If your "WAF" or you have a I do not care what they look like, I care what they sound like.. the tops are wing nut locked down.. I believe it would not be a problem to put them where you need them at all. They would not look symmetrical though. I have often stated <<< sorry... OK, better said, offered a "helpful suggestion," Klipsch should of made the top section so that it could be rotated where it needs to be. The thing is, the speakers are sooo huge sounding, your still going to get that big sound no matter if it is perfect on axis to you or not. The rule was in my commercial sound for my band was... If you can look down that throat of the driver and see all the way down your covered! Seems to work, even today, even if your not 100% to the nth percentile with a laser pointer. For the purists... 100% nirvana people..always room to tweak. hehehehe Get that laser pointer out now.. get it pointed to "your seat." And make it perrrrrrrrrfect and ahhhhhhhhhh Life is good! 2006. My dream La Scala HT System for downstairs is finally done. 7 Identical split La Scala's, all exactly pointed where they should be. (Timbre DOES matter!) 2 of the Klipsch THX KW 120 subs, with the KA 1000 Amp. Dedicated 17' x 30' room, 106" Daylite screen, with the Infocus 7210 DLP Projector. Sunfire Theater Grand IV, Sunfire Signature series 200 x 7 amp. OK, It IS Klipsch nirvana, for me. Great to be done, a YEAR later!! The ticket booth is open, and the popcorn machine works too! Dim the lights, on with the show!! ~~Avatar Colterphoto1~~ Report abuse Quick Reply 3 hours, 52 minutes ago 841606 in reply to 841603 canyonman Joined on 02-03-2006 New Orleans La Posts 570 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact Roger I know they are wing nuted, and I know they will not look sysmetrical. I was just wandering which would be better, adding the backs as you did or just toeing in the tops? Jay SONY CD RCD W-500CSANSUI TU-710 TUNERMUSICAL FIDELITY X-10 v3ROGUE AUDIO 99 MAGNUM PRESOPHIA ELECTRIC 300B MKII AMPAUDIOQUEST IC'SAUDIOQUEST POWER CABLEANTHEM PRE-1 PHONO AMPLUXMAN PD 264/Shure M97xE CARTRIDGE KLIPSCH K-HORNS 1977 ALK XOVERS Report abuse Quick Reply 3 hours, 42 minutes ago 841611 in reply to 841606 IndyKlipschFan Joined on 03-18-2001 Indianapolis, Indiana Posts 4,551 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact If your bass is not an issue, take off the tops from the wing nuts and see/hear. The bass is not as directional as the mids and highs obviously. Let us know what you think. (in the end, that is what matters.) If you need to toe them in or out... just a little.. Why not get 100% of that bass and have them look like they do now? My thought process was this, I knew form a pretty perfect room before how they sounded.. I also know how they sounded in the 60th ones.. I was not getting good bass before. I am now.. 2006. My dream La Scala HT System for downstairs is finally done. 7 Identical split La Scala's, all exactly pointed where they should be. (Timbre DOES matter!) 2 of the Klipsch THX KW 120 subs, with the KA 1000 Amp. Dedicated 17' x 30' room, 106" Daylite screen, with the Infocus 7210 DLP Projector. Sunfire Theater Grand IV, Sunfire Signature series 200 x 7 amp. OK, It IS Klipsch nirvana, for me. Great to be done, a YEAR later!! The ticket booth is open, and the popcorn machine works too! Dim the lights, on with the show!! ~~Avatar Colterphoto1~~ Report abuse Quick Reply 3 hours, 36 minutes ago 841615 in reply to 841611 DeanG Joined on 02-03-2000 Kettering, Ohio Posts 13,161 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact Jay -- learn about your speaker, go look at it. Tell me, how are you going to turn the top hat with the thing still in the corner? Any resemblance between the Klipsch Forum and eHarmony.com is purely coincidental Report abuse Quick Reply 3 hours, 18 minutes ago 841624 in reply to 841615 IndyKlipschFan Joined on 03-18-2001 Indianapolis, Indiana Posts 4,551 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact Kinda hard isn't it deang.. But hey, I think you and I are on to something here with the backs sealed like you or I did it.. There is no way, (OK.. IMO) you can deny this is a improvement.. Really, I feel this strong about it. Again, this mod is reversable.. So nothing you do will show if you go back to the old style with what I did. I think the 59.99 I spent on the 4' x 8' Balitc Birch and 3.57 on screws (plus labor) was a home run. Just let your own ears decide. 2006. My dream La Scala HT System for downstairs is finally done. 7 Identical split La Scala's, all exactly pointed where they should be. (Timbre DOES matter!) 2 of the Klipsch THX KW 120 subs, with the KA 1000 Amp. Dedicated 17' x 30' room, 106" Daylite screen, with the Infocus 7210 DLP Projector. Sunfire Theater Grand IV, Sunfire Signature series 200 x 7 amp. OK, It IS Klipsch nirvana, for me. Great to be done, a YEAR later!! The ticket booth is open, and the popcorn machine works too! Dim the lights, on with the show!! ~~Avatar Colterphoto1~~ Report abuse Quick Reply 2 hours, 32 minutes ago 841634 in reply to 841624 DeanG Joined on 02-03-2000 Kettering, Ohio Posts 13,161 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact It works good for me, that's for sure -- but I didn't have much choice really. I didn't do it for the bass, I did it to get some imaging out of them. I haven't heard the Klipschorn in a lot of different rooms, but the times I have heard them -- I wouldn't say they suffered from a lack of quality bass. Mine sounded tighter after I did the mod, but that was in my room. At Parrot's house -- and his room is pretty big, they sounded tight and controlled there as well, and he just has his pushed into the corners in the normal fashion. Any resemblance between the Klipsch Forum and eHarmony.com is purely coincidental Report abuse Quick Reply 2 hours, 30 minutes ago 841636 in reply to 841634 DeanG Joined on 02-03-2000 Kettering, Ohio Posts 13,161 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact The comment in the manual disturb me -- it contradicts what Roy said. The manual follows the line of reasoning that was established long ago -- here and elsewhere. Any resemblance between the Klipsch Forum and eHarmony.com is purely coincidental Report abuse Quick Reply 2 hours, 15 minutes ago 841644 in reply to 841636 IndyKlipschFan Joined on 03-18-2001 Indianapolis, Indiana Posts 4,551 Re: Building backs on older (1989) K horns like the new 60th Anniversary ones. Reply Quote Favorites Contact Edwin do you mean this article? THE 1993 KLIPSCHORN SPEAKER SYSTEMby Constantine SooAugust 3, 2001 SpecificationsManufactured in 1993Sensitivity: 104dB/w/mBandwidth: 35Hz 17.5kHz +/- 3dBCrossover Frequencies: 400Hz and 6kHzNominal Impedance: 8 ohmsOutput: 124dB maximum continuousPower Handling: 100 watts maximum continuous (400 watts peak)Configuration: Fully horn-loaded, three-way systemDriver Components: K77-M 1" Phenolec tweeter, K55-M 2" Phenolec midrange, K33-E 15" folded-horn wooferWeight: 167 lbs. (75.7kg)Dimensions: 52" × 31.25" × 28.5" (HxWxD)Finish: Walnut Oil, Mahogany, Oak Oil, Oak Clear or Black (review pair)Grilles: Black, brown, woven caneMSRP: $5,798/pairManufacturer:KlipschWeb: www.klipsch.com/ I mentioned in my Granite Audio interconnect review that I would be posting a review of my Klipschorn speakers, which I put aside because of commitments. Recently, a reader reignited the flame by inquiring into the status of that review. Thank you, reader.Some of you may have contemplated adding horns to your systems. While there are magazines trumpeting the unique experiences of horn proponents, some high-end establishments remain resistant. One dealer demonstrated his idea of a horns sound by cuppin g his mouth with both hands. As advancements have been realized in almost all aspects of modern playback systems, horn speakers are often seen as a throwback. However, in spite of the horns century-old operating principle, it continues to offer advantages: the simplicity of its technology and an efficiency that permits the use of low-power amplifiers.When Stereophile held its High end Show in San Francisco, I returned to two horn exhibitors rooms three days in a row: Kochel and Tannoy. Kochel was a new Korean company making multi-driver horn systems, utilizing the classic diaphragm-plus-throat approach, while Tannoy sported their prestigious dual-concentric technology in the Churchill enclosure, the core technology having been patented before World War II. The East and the West met at a junction in the form of the horn. Both exhibitors drove their speakers with low-output, single-ended triode amplifiers. Since I couldnt afford either speaker, I kept coming back with CDs in order to etch in my mind the two systems incomparable sonic attributes. While different sounding, their two crowning attributes were dynamic realism and harmonic coherency.In the spring of 1999, when a pair of used 1993 Klipschorn became available, I seized upon the moment and bought them. According to Klipsch, the 1989 and 2001 differ only in an updated crossover, which, so far as I can determine, produces no variance in sound. Like the Kochel and the Tannoy systems, the Klipschorns, powered by remarkably few watts, can transport you to the realm of sonic realism. The Klipschorn exhibits an intensity of dynamic transients via tube or solid-state amplification. In fact, Id been driving my Klipschorns with one Monarchy Audio SM-70 with extraordinary results until January 2001, when I bought a second SM-70 for monoblock operation.SOUNDSTAGINGThe K-horn is a three-way system consisting of a one-inch compression tweeter horn, two-inch compression midrange horn and a fifteen-inch folded bass horn.The tweeters horn sits on top of the midrange horn and covers the range from 6kHz to 17.5kHz. Centrally situated above the bulk of the cabinet and below the tweeters horn, the midranges horn runs only about half of the width of the cabinet and is the main driver of the system with a specified frequency range of 400Hz to 6kHz. The main cabinet houses the rear-firing, 15-inch drivers folded bass horn, which covers the range from 400Hz to its specified limit of 35Hz.Most speakers sacrifice soundstaging definition when placed wide apart. The K-horns are designed for large rooms and will generally function satisfactorily in opposite-corner placement. In a medium-sized room like mine, I had to make a few minor adjustments to optimize performance.Specifically, the K-horns are designed to fit into the corners of the long wall, using the adjoining sidewalls as an extension of the bass horn. This unusual placement actually creates the Klipschorns life-size soundstage. Although the dimensions of my listening room, at 12 × 17 × 8 (W × L × H), can accommodate the recommended long-wall placement, it is an open-ended rectangle with only one short wall. Since this asymmetry precludes the recommended placement, I had to use the short walls corners. At their initial setup, the K-horns inevitably became overly "toed-in," both channels converging into a sweet spot five feet in front of my listening position, making the soundstage unfocused and remote-sounding. I toed them out until each K-horns midrange was firing at the listening position. Then I tilted the speakers slightly downward to have the midrange fire straight at me. Thus set up, with my listening position approximately three meters away, the K-horns throw a precise center stage with excellent overall soundstage delineation.The height of the midrange and t weeter horns further reinforce the life-size soundstage. For our readers in San Francisco, it resembles the Premier Orchestra first floor seating at the San Francisco Symphonys Davis Hall.And yet, with their impressive soundstage depth, horns are less than peerless in soundstage crystallization. For readers who are adamant about supreme image depth, quite a few planar and cone speakers will do a better job, e.g., my Apogee Duetta Signatures. Furthermore, the K-horns midrange and tweeter horns are so highly directional that my ASC acoustic treatments are largely unnecessary. The Klipschorns sound their best when pointing directly at you.THE SOUNDThe K-horns do not possess the timbral finesse of the Audio Note AN-E/D speakers I recently reviewed, but I do not hear this shortcoming as a serious liability. Many describe the horn systems sound as artificial, congested, flat and unmusical. In my listening room, the K-horns produce the opposite effect, and their unrivaled dynamic realism remains evident and clean even at high volume levels.The K-horns bass achieves its maximum with modest amplifier power. The Audio Review website contains comments from K-horn users, mostly describing the bass as natural. Although the low end can be thunderous, it maintains the musics critical overtones, a capability that relates to the naturalness many K-horn users proclaim. However, larger rooms are a prerequisite for optimum bass. Therefore, if good bass is at the top of your sonic priorities, the K-horn may not be for you if your room dimensions do not allow for corner placement.Regarding the Klipschorns 17.5kHz roll-off, although Ive never seen such limited top- end specifications from any speaker, I have always been happy with the K-horns highs. Other speakers in the same room do not provide more perceptible top-end information. In addition, the 3dB roll-off slope may be slow enough to allow for higher-frequency information at high listening volumes. Furthermore, with CDs 20kHz upper limit, the differences may be too subtle to be appreciable.Some studies show that our brains can process ultra-high frequencies although our auditory senses cannot seeming hear beyond 20kHz, even in our youth, when our hearing is at its best. Certain theories further claim that our well being depends on this ultra-high-frequency information, in that it stimulates the secretion of a relaxation-inducing chemical. This may be significant when playing SACDs or LPs. Perhaps some day Klipsch will better address this design aspect.AMPLIFICATIONAlthough the Klipschorns high sensitivity invites the use of low-power, single-ended triode amplifiers, care must be taken in choosing a quiet preamp and a power amp with low idling noise. The Wadia 27s versatile, user-adjustable output level and digital volume control are supremely quiet, making it an ideal candidate in driving most tube amplifiers. The Audio Note Western Electric 300B Quest monoblocks (review in progress), as driven directly by the Wadia 27 Decoding Computer, produced a minute level of non-intrusive idling hiss. The Decware SE84C (review in progress) also mated well with the Wadia.The 125-wpc, EL-34-based Music Reference RM9 II was inappropriate, in that it must be set to the highest feedback/lowest output position in conjunction with the Wadia to keep the idling noise down. At this setting, the RM9 II lost its transparency.Solid-state amplifiers are quiet during idling. Both my relatively high-powered Aragon 2004 and Monarchy Audio SM70 produced very satisfying results. The 2004 rendered a less energetic presentation, with a softer top end, smoother midrange and thicker bass, versus the SM70s crystalline top end, detailed yet slightly forward midrange, and dynamic lower midrange and bass.The Decware SE84C, AN Quest and MR RM9 II amplifiers exhibited increased idling noise when a Krell KRC-2 preamp replaced the Wadia 27. Therefore, the otherwise excellent Krell, with its high output capabilities, is inappropriate for driving the Klipschorn with some tube amps.COEXISTENCE WITH SIGNIFICANT OTHERSMy wife welcomed the Klipschorns positioned in their corners. She deplores the imposing presence of all other speakers, complaining regularly about my room-dividing Apogees and Genesis, and even the mini-monitor Celestion SL700s, as they must all be positioned well into the listening room.The Klipschorns will coexist with your other speaker system in other ways. You can position new speakers in front of them with no negative consequences. For example, to minimize early reflections from the rear wall and the sidewalls, I usually place other speaker systems about one-third into the room. The rear radiation of other speakers will engage the front of the Klipschorn. Since each Klipschorn is now angled at 30 to 45 degrees from the long walls, corner standing waves are mostly diffused, with the remaining reflections from the front of the K-horns returning to the rear of the freestanding speakers. Therefore, you need only treat the sidewalls. I have obtained excellent results using other speaker systems in the presence of the Klipschorns. As I never felt the need to move the Klipschorns while using other speakers, you should beware that the K-horns majestic yet unobtrusive presence may grow on you.CONCLUSIONThe Klipschorns tower over my other speakers in their dynamic realism and sheer listenability. CDs played through them possess lifelike, compression-free qualities. Furthermore, the horn midrange and tweeter are impressively devoid of c haos in the midst of instrumental outbursts. Although Klipschorn possesses impressive detailing, realism and musicality, perfection doesnt exist in any loudspeaker system. While its extreme sensitivity permits the use of low-power purist amplifiers, mating it to a suitable amp is crucial.Even after careful consideration, it may require a leap of faith to acquire a horn system, since to do so may alienate you from orthodox audiophiles. To return to the High End Show I mention above, I was able to loiter for long periods of time in the Kochel and Tannoy sound rooms because neither room ever got crowded. The true believers stayed away. Even stepping in for a peek would mean excommunication. That was about three years ago. With recent rave reviews for the European Avante Garde horn systems, a heightened awareness of a well-designed horns strengths may have changed High-end sentiments.When driven by my 25-wpc, solid-state single-ended class A Monarchy Audio SM-70, the K-horns delivered full-blown dynamics and convincing dimensionality. Tube amplifiers, like the Audio Note Quest monoblocks (see my recent review) and the Decware SE84C (review in progress), provide a mellower, more musical sonic signature without dynamic sacrifice. The technically capable purist can replace the original crossover with an external three-way unit, the doing of which might elevate timbre accuracy and dimensionality, among other performance aspects.My sincerest thanks go to Trey Cannon of Klipsch for his responsive replies to my many background inquiries.Associated Equipment: Digital Front EndCEC TL1 CD transportSony SCD-777ES SACD/CD playerWadia 27 Decoding ComputerAmplificationAudio Note M3Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature monoblocksAudio Note Quest 300B monoblocksDecware SE84CGW Labs 270 tube amplifierGW Labs Cyclop Integrated AmplifierKrell KRC-2Monarchy Audio SM70 monoblocksLoudspeakersAudio Note AN-E/DCelestion SL700Genesis Technologies VICablingAudio Note AN-La (8 feet, bi-wired)Audio Note AN-V interconnect (RCA, 2m)Cardas 5c (8 feet)Granite Audio #470 silver cables (RCA, 1m, 2 pairs)Kimber Kable AGDL digital cable (0.5m)TMC balanced XLR (1m) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 What's with the double exposure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 This is one of Soo's articles about the Klipschorn. He's mentioned the Klipschorn in several other articles - comparing the K'horn with Audio Notes: http://www.stereotimes.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 What's with the double exposure? Someone has tried to post Soo's Klipschorn article and the forum doesn't like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 Soto's article....... Specifications Manufactured in 1989Sensitivity: 104dB/w/mBandwidth: 35Hz 17.5kHz +/- 3dBCrossoverFrequencies: 400Hz and 6kHzNominal Impedance: 8 ohmsOutput: 124dB maximum continuousPower Handling: 100 watts maximum continuous (400 watts peak)Configuration: Fully horn-loaded, three-way systemDriver Components: K77-M 1" Phenolec tweeter, K55-M 2" Phenolec midrange, K33-E15" folded-horn wooferWeight: 167 lbs. (75.7kg)Dimensions: 52" × 31.25" × 28.5" (HxWxD)Finish: Walnut Oil, Mahogany, Oak Oil, Oak Clear or Black (review pair)Grilles: Black, brown, woven caneMSRP: $5,798/pairManufacturer:KlipschWeb: www.klipsch.com/ I mentioned in my Granite Audio interconnect review that I would be posting a review of my Klipschorn speakers, which I put aside because of commitments. Recently, a reader reignited the flame by inquiring into the status of that review. Thank you, reader. Some of you may have contemplated adding horns to your systems. While there are magazines trumpeting the unique experiences of horn proponents, some high-end establishments remain resistant. One dealer demonstrated his idea of a horns sound by cupping his mouth with both hands. As advancements have been realized in almost all aspects of modern playback systems, horn speakers are often seen as a throwback. However, in spite of the horns century-old operating principle, it continues to offer advantages: the simplicity of its technology and an efficiency that permits the use of low-power amplifiers. When Stereophile held its High end Show in San Francisco, I returned to two horn exhibitors rooms three days in a row: Kochel and Tannoy. Kochel was a new Korean company making multi-driver horn systems, utilizing the classic diaphragm-plus-throat approach, while Tannoy sported their prestigious dual-concentric technology in the Churchill enclosure, the core technology having been patented before World War II. The East and the West met at a junction in the form of the horn. Both exhibitors drove their speakers with low-output, single-ended triode amplifiers. Since I couldnt afford either speaker, I kept coming back with CDs in order to etch in my mind the two systems incomparable sonic attributes. While different sounding, their two crowning attributes were dynamic realism and harmonic coherency. In the spring of 1999, when a pair of used 1989 Klipschorn became available, I seized upon the moment and bought them. According to Klipsch, the 1989 and 2001 differ only in an updated crossover, which, so far as I can determine, produces no variance in sound. Like the Kochel and the Tannoy systems, the Klipschorns, powered by remarkably few watts, can transport you to the realm of sonic realism. The Klipschorn exhibits an intensity of dynamic transients via tube or solid-state amplification. In fact, Id been driving my Klipschorns with one Monarchy Audio SM-70 with extraordinary results until January 2001, when I bought a second SM-70 for monoblock operation. Soundstaging The K-horn is a three-way system consisting of a one-inch compression tweeter horn, two-inch compression midrange horn and a fifteen-inch folded bass horn. The tweeters horn sits on top of the midrange horn and covers the range from 6kHz to 17.5kHz. Centrally situated above the bulk of the cabinet and below the tweeters horn, the midranges horn runs only about half of the width of the cabinet and is the main driver of the system with a specified frequency range of 400Hz to 6kHz. The main cabinet houses the rear-firing, 15-inch drivers folded bass horn, which covers the range from 400Hz to its specified limit of 35Hz. Most speakers sacrifice soundstaging definition when placed wide apart. The K-horns are designed for large rooms and will generally function satisfactorily in opposite-corner placement. In a medium-sized room like mine, I had to make a few minor adjustments to optimize performance. Specifically, the K-horns are designed to fit into the corners of the long wall, using the adjoining sidewalls as an extension of the bass horn. This unusual placement actually creates the Klipschorns life-size soundstage. Although the dimensions of my listening room, at 12 × 17 × 8 (W × L × H), can accommodate the recommended long-wall placement, it is an open-ended rectangle with only one short wall. Since this asymmetry precludes the recommended placement, I had to use the short walls corners. At their initial setup, the K-horns inevitably became overly "toed-in," both channels converging into a sweet spot five feet in front of my listening position, making the soundstage unfocused and remote-sounding. I toed them out until each K-horns midrange was firing at the listening position. Then I tilted the speakers slightly downward to have the midrange fire straight at me. Thus set up, with my listening position approximately three meters away, the K-horns throw a precise center stage with excellent overall soundstage delineation. The height of the midrange and tweeter horns further reinforce the life-size soundstage. For our readers in San Francisco, it resembles the Premier Orchestra first floor seating at the San Francisco Symphonys Davis Hall. And yet, with their impressive soundstage depth, horns are less than peerless in soundstage crystallization. For readers who are adamant about supreme image depth, quite a few planar and cone speakers will do a better job, e.g., my Apogee Duetta Signatures. Furthermore, the K-horns midrange and tweeter horns are so highly directional that my ASC acoustic treatments are largely unnecessary. The Klipschorns sound their best when pointing directly at you. The Sound The K-horns do not possess the timbral finesse of the Audio Note AN-E/D speakers I recently reviewed, but I do not hear this shortcoming as a serious liability. Many describe the horn systems sound as artificial, congested, flat and unmusical. In my listening room, the K-horns produce the opposite effect, and their unrivaled dynamic realism remains evident and clean even at high volume levels. The K-horns bass achieves its maximum with modest amplifier power. The Audio Review website contains comments from K-horn users, mostly describing the bass as natural. Although the low end can be thunderous, it maintains the musics critical overtones, a capability that relates to the naturalness many K-horn users proclaim. However, larger rooms are a prerequisite for optimum bass. Therefore, if good bass is at the top of your sonic priorities, the K-horn may not be for you if your room dimensions do not allow for corner placement. Regarding the Klipschorns 17.5kHz roll-off, although Ive never seen such limited top- end specifications from any speaker, I have always been happy with the K-horns highs. Other speakers in the same room do not provide more perceptible top-end information. In addition, the 3dB roll-off slope may be slow enough to allow for higher-frequency information at high listening volumes. Furthermore, with CDs 20kHz upper limit, the differences may be too subtle to be appreciable. Some studies show that our brains can process ultra-high frequencies although our auditory senses cannot seeming hear beyond 20kHz, even in our youth, when our hearing is at its best. Certain theories further claim that our well being depends on this ultra-high-frequency information, in that it stimulates the secretion of a relaxation-inducing chemical. This may be significant when playing SACDs or LPs. Perhaps some day Klipsch will better address this design aspect. Amplification Although the Klipschorns high sensitivity invites the use of low-power, single-ended triode amplifiers, care must be taken in choosing a quiet preamp and a power amp with low idling noise. The Wadia 27s versatile, user-adjustable output level and digital volume control are supremely quiet, making it an ideal candidate in driving most tube amplifiers. The Audio Note Western Electric 300B Quest monoblocks (review in progress), as driven directly by the Wadia 27 Decoding Computer, produced a minute level of non-intrusive idling hiss. The Decware SE84C (review in progress) also mated well with the Wadia. The 125-wpc, EL-34-based Music Reference RM9 II was inappropriate, in that it must be set to the highest feedback/lowest output position in conjunction with the Wadia to keep the idling noise down. At this setting, the RM9 II lost its transparency. Solid-state amplifiers are quiet during idling. Both my relatively high-powered Aragon 2004 and Monarchy Audio SM70 produced very satisfying results. The 2004 rendered a less energetic presentation, with a softer top end, smoother midrange and thicker bass, versus the SM70s crystalline top end, detailed yet slightly forward midrange, and dynamic lower midrange and bass. The Decware SE84C, AN Quest and MR RM9 II amplifiers exhibited increased idling noise when a Krell KRC-2 preamp replaced the Wadia 27. Therefore, the otherwise excellent Krell, with its high output capabilities, is inappropriate for driving the Klipschorn with some tube amps. Coexistence with Significant Others my wife welcomed the Klipschorns positioned in their corners. She deplores the imposing presence of all other speakers, complaining regularly about my room-dividing Apogees and Genesis, and even the mini-monitor Celestion SL700s, as they must all be positioned well into the listening room. The Klipschorns will coexist with your other speaker system in other ways. You can position new speakers in front of them with no negative consequences. For example, to minimize early reflections from the rear wall and the sidewalls, I usually place other speaker systems about one-third into the room. The rear radiation of other speakers will engage the front of the Klipschorn. Since each Klipschorn is now angled at 30 to 45 degrees from the long walls, corner standing waves are mostly diffused, with the remaining reflections from the front of the K-horns returning to the rear of the freestanding speakers. Therefore, you need only treat the sidewalls. I have obtained excellent results using other speaker systems in the presence of the Klipschorns. As I never felt the need to move the Klipschorns while using other speakers, you should beware that the K-horns majestic yet unobtrusive presence may grow on you. Conclusion The Klipschorns tower over my other speakers in their dynamic realism and sheer listenability. CDs played through them possess lifelike, compression-free qualities. Furthermore, the horn midrange and tweeter are impressively devoid of chaos in the midst of instrumental outbursts. Although Klipschorn possesses impressive detailing, realism and musicality, perfection doesnt exist in any loudspeaker system. While its extreme sensitivity permits the use of low-power purist amplifiers, mating it to a suitable amp is crucial. Even after careful consideration, it may require a leap of faith to acquire a horn system, since to do so may alienate you from orthodox audiophiles. To return to the High End Show I mention above, I was able to loiter for long periods of time in the Kochel and Tannoy sound rooms because neither room ever got crowded. The true believers stayed away. Even stepping in for a peek would mean excommunication. That was about three years ago. With recent rave reviews for the European Avante Garde horn systems, a heightened awareness of a well-designed horns strengths may have changed High-end sentiments. When driven by my 25-wpc, solid-state single-ended class A Monarchy Audio SM-70, the K-horns delivered full-blown dynamics and convincing dimensionality. Tube amplifiers, like the Audio Note Quest monoblocks (see my recent review) and the Decware SE84C (review in progress), provide a mellower, more musical sonic signature without dynamic sacrifice. The technically capable purist can replace the original crossover with an external three-way unit, the doing of which might elevate timbre accuracy and dimensionality, among other performance aspects. My sincerest thanks go to Trey Cannon of Klipsch for his responsive replies to my many background inquiries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 To the form moderator(s) .. please erase the double exposure on this page.... My bad here.... Sorry I have no idea what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 What would be the problem with turning the top hats in a little? Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 The problem would be that the farthest point back, in the middle, would hit against your wall more if you turned it a little, so the whole thing would stick out well beyond flush with the bass cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Parrot I understand that, that is pretty obvious. Is that the only problem? Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I just don't understand why Klipsch didn't make it a standard production practice if it really made the speakers perform that well in so many more rooms. They could have doubled or tripled their potential market. We see from this ebay sellers' anecdote that this may have been done 50 years ago. simple. the khorns were as paul wanted them..... roy delgado Well, that's illuminating. Of course they were. What I'm curious about is why he made the decision if he did know about this. Was it based on unacceptable performance when compared to the published "false" corner plans? Was it deemed too expensive to standardize into production - thereby limiting sales due to price elevation? Was he just being stubborn? Did he even hear the things with the backs built like this? Maybe it'd be more relevant to say what your opinion of the issue is with current units. Surely you heard the 60th Ann. models with and without the enclosed rear in testing chambers and typical rooms with corners of various suitability before you approved production and sale of such an important model. Or do the "60s" represent a speaker that Mr. Klipsch would not have wanted? gee!!! i don't know..... roy delgado The fact that you're just sarcastically dancing around this simple issue is pathetic. I wonder if you'd approve of other Klipsch employees being so asinine on the company sponsored forum. Nearly every post I read from you makes me like the Klipsch brand less. I'm sure you don't care... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Parrot I understand that, that is pretty obvious. Is that the only problem? Well, it's kind of a show stopper. I can think up some other problems for you if you need more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 You need the corners to continue past the Klipschorn, back or no back, to continue the flare of the horn. Apparently, this isn't true -- according to Roy. From the Klipsch Heritage Manual: "... With extremely high sensitivity, this three way fully horn loaded loudspeaker with a folded tri-hedral bass horn utilises the walls and corners of the listening room as part of it's design... The Klipschorn requires corner placement because the wall of the room serve to complete the speaker's low frequency horn. To acheive full frequency extension, the Klipschorn should fit tightly in a corner without trim or baseboard interference and the wall surfaces should extend at least 25 inches beyond the side grills". So we're rewriting history? [] nope. just clarifying it. the klipschorn has no back panels. the walls complete the back panels and are used to complete the horn to the front of the speaker. after that there is no more "horn". now what you get is 1/8 space loading (corner placment) because the horn was designed with 1/8 loading in mind. that is why it must be placed in corner. if you add the back walls, like roger did, then you are essentially completing what the walls were doing. what this buys you is a little relaxation in the guidline of having the lf section firmly in place touching the walls so that the gaskets could seal and then the bottom of the hf with completes the top of the lf also has to be in place for the horn to be sealed and completely. adding the back panels makes sure the horn does not "leak" and allows some leeway in toeing in the khorns. hope this helps. roy delgado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I just don't understand why Klipsch didn't make it a standard production practice if it really made the speakers perform that well in so many more rooms. They could have doubled or tripled their potential market. We see from this ebay sellers' anecdote that this may have been done 50 years ago. simple. the khorns were as paul wanted them..... roy delgado Well, that's illuminating. Of course they were. What I'm curious about is why he made the decision if he did know about this. Was it based on unacceptable performance when compared to the published "false" corner plans? Was it deemed too expensive to standardize into production - thereby limiting sales due to price elevation? Was he just being stubborn? Did he even hear the things with the backs built like this? Maybe it'd be more relevant to say what your opinion of the issue is with current units. Surely you heard the 60th Ann. models with and without the enclosed rear in testing chambers and typical rooms with corners of various suitability before you approved production and sale of such an important model. Or do the "60s" represent a speaker that Mr. Klipsch would not have wanted? gee!!! i don't know..... roy delgado The fact that you're just sarcastically dancing around this simple issue is pathetic. I wonder if you'd approve of other Klipsch employees being so asinine on the company sponsored forum. Nearly every post I read from you makes me like the Klipsch brand less. I'm sure you don't care... dude, you are getting all upset over nothing. you didn't exactly come asking nicely, instead you come on bullying and i don't know of very many people that respond too well to that. i am sending myself to the corner. roy delgado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 The comment in the manual disturb me -- it contradicts what Roy said. The manual follows the line of reasoning that was established long ago -- here and elsewhere. oh ye of little faith.... roy delgado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 "nope. just clarifying it. the klipschorn has no back panels. the walls complete the back panels and are used to complete the horn to the front of the speaker. after that there is no more "horn". now what you get is 1/8 space loading (corner placment) because the horn was designed with 1/8 loading in mind. that is why it must be placed in corner. if you add the back walls, like roger did, then you are essentially completing what the walls were doing. what this buys you is a little relaxation in the guidline of having the lf section firmly in place touching the walls so that the gaskets could seal and then the bottom of the hf with completes the top of the lf also has to be in place for the horn to be sealed and completely. adding the back panels makes sure the horn does not "leak" and allows some leeway in toeing in the khorns. hope this helps. roy delgado" Thanks Roy. There are at least two Khorn owners here in Little Rhode Island that can use this advice.[] Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Hey dean, please hurry and think of some more problems. Seeing how you have nothing better to do than to mock someone who is looking for info. It's comments like that, that give some people reason for not wanting to participate on this forum. If this is you way of having fun I understand, meaningless minds do meaningless things. Try not to hurt yourself while thinking of some more problems, we wouldn't want that now would we. Happy Holidays to you and yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Jay, I was just kidding with you. I'm sorry I offended you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Dean, I was also offended when you said I was a tight *** with my Klipschorns. EDIT: Oh, wait, I misread that. You said I had tight bass with my Klipschorns. Apology no longer necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 dude, you are getting all upset over nothing. you didn't exactly come asking nicely, instead you come on bullying and i don't know of very many people that respond too well to that. i am sending myself to the corner. roy delgado I'm far from upset. Amused, dissapointed, a bit frustrated maybe... Bullying? I just scanned through the whole thread and that charactarization is baffling. The "sending myself to the corner" comment is funny though, considering the subject. I don't understand your motives for posting the way you do here. When simple information would clarify things greatly, you seem to enjoy chiming in with a condesceding one line question or obtuse comment. Why wait so long to give the explanation you just did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 nope. just clarifying it. the klipschorn has no back panels. the walls complete the back panels and are used to complete the horn to the front of the speaker. after that there is no more "horn". now what you get is 1/8 space loading (corner placment) because the horn was designed with 1/8 loading in mind. that is why it must be placed in corner. if you add the back walls, like roger did, then you are essentially completing what the walls were doing. what this buys you is a little relaxation in the guidline of having the lf section firmly in place touching the walls so that the gaskets could seal and then the bottom of the hf with completes the top of the lf also has to be in place for the horn to be sealed and completely. adding the back panels makes sure the horn does not "leak" and allows some leeway in toeing in the khorns. hope this helps. roy delgado Thanks for that. That was close to my original understanding of the reasoning behind putting backs on Klipschorns. But I'm wondering about the degree of toe-in this modification allows. I would not imagine there would be that much latitude. But may be enough so that prospective Klipschorn owners could do a little 'tweaking' without the problems associated in the past with breaking the corner seal or compromising the low frequency extension. Now Roy, I am aware that Klipsch are looking at incorporating the sealed back in future standard klipschorns. Can you tell me how far down the track this proposed modification is? Or isn't it something you can discuss at the moment? Edwin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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