JubScala?

[Islander]

Well, the 510 JubScalas are working right, now that the connection issues have been solved. First impression is good. I'll update after final tweaking is done and I've listened to them some more.

[bodcaw boy]

hey patisle,

if you need anything, let me know.

take care,

roy

[Islander]

Thanks, Roy. They're sounding pretty good, and revealing some subtleties in vocals that the K-55V/CT125 combo was unable to show. There's still some hiss that doesn't change with volume setting, but I think that's due to a a combination of the very high sensitivity of the K-69A and the Dx38 being relatively "under-driven" to run at living room volume. The input and output LEDs only come on at extreme volume. Maybe my ears and my meter are off, but over 100dB sounds really loud to me. The hiss can't be heard once I'm about four feet from the speakers and of course not at all from the listening position.

Before adding the new gear, the main (La Scala) speakers were set at -10dB in the receiver to make them match with the level of the center and surround speakers, but yesterday I raised them to 0dB and set the Dx inputs to 0 or unity (from +6dB), because the volume was low. Now the volume is back to where it was, in spite of adding a second 500Wpc amp. I guess it's due to the 6dB loss in the RCA-to-XLR conversion. Having two of the volume settings in the chain at 0 seems like a good thing for signal purity. The Dx outputs are all at the -6 position (straight up).

Today I added some delay to the Out2 and Out4 (treble) channels to time-align the LS bass and the 510 tweets. I set it at 90cm, about 35 inches, because that looks like the difference in length between the bass and treble horns. Is that roughly correct, or are the acoustic centers not actually at the diaphagms?

The 510 horns are on top of the LS cabinets and a couple of inches back from the fronts of them, more so they won't accidentally get knocked off than for any acoustic reason.

I should also mention that the sound seems much bigger. A couple of times, I thought the surround speakers were on, but no, I was listening in straight 2-channel.

What year are the designs of the K-69As and the K510s? The K-77 and K400/K-55V designs go back to 1963, IIRC, so I think the new stuff are forty years newer designs.

Also, Roy, what is the throw of the 510 horn? Is it 90x40, 60x40, or something like that?

[Islander]

Finally, here are some pictures of the 510 JubScalas. This one shows one of the 510 horns just out of the box. The grey box at the top of the audio rack is the EV Dx 38, the digital sound processor. At the bottom of the rack and on the floor beside it (on a slab of black ABS plastic) are a pair of Yamaha MX-D1 stereo power amps.

Other than in magazines, I'd never seen a bi-amped system, so I thought I'd explain the connections for anyone unfamiliar with the concept. The Dx 38 has 2 channels in and 4 channels out. In1 and In2 are connected to the left and right Pre Out jacks on the receiver, for left and right channel. Out1 and Out3 are connected to the power amp on the left, which drives the La Scala woofers. Out2 and Out4 are connected to the power amp on the right, which drives the 510 horns with their K-69A tweeters.

The existing tweeters and squawkers in the La Scalas, along with their AA crossovers, are disconnected, since the new tweeters and the Dx 38 are now taking care of the high frequencies. The K33 woofers operate as normal, but are connected directly to the power amp.

[Islander]

In this picture, you can see a rear three-quarter view of the La Scala and its new tweeter. Although the new K-69 tweeter and the original K55V squawker both have two-inch throats, the K-69 has a much larger body than the K55, visible in the back of the cabinet. The cables aren't coming out of the speaker, they're just looped around the K55's support bracket so the weight of the cables doesn't tug on the connectors. The woofer cable is 8 gauge, while the tweeter cable is 10 gauge.

The 510's support bracket is meant to be bolted to the bass bin, so without being bolted down, it tips forward. I cut a piece of Styrofoam to serve as a temporary support while I'm checking out how much I like the added height of the new tweeters.

[Islander]

Here's a front view of the 510 JubScala. The height to the top of the 510 horn is 46 inches, higher than the La Scala's 34.5-inch cabinet, but shorter than a Klipschorn's 52-inch cabinet. It seems to work well with my 8-foot ceilings. I've since moved the tweeters nearer to the outside edge of the LS cabinets for a bit more stereo separation. The split setup is convenient that way.

[jwc]

So what do you think of the difference in sound?

lookin good.

jc

[Guinness]

What is the crossover point for the 510 horn with K69? Will it go down to 400Hz?

[Coytee]

I think it's about 500hz. One reason this horn (as well as the 402) works so well with the LaScala and not with the Khorn is the LaScala bass bin goes higher than the Khorn. I'm not 100% sure on the 500 hz though, I've got those numbers at home and I'm at work.

(what??? don't we ALL play around here while at work?? [:|])

[Islander]

The LS bass bin is set to roll off above 420Hz and the 510 horn is set to roll off below 470Hz, both at 24dB/octave. These are Roy's settings and it seems to work fine, but with my limited knowledge, I wonder if that leaves a dip between 420 and 470?

As for the sound, jc, I'm still not sure the sub is perfectly dialed in to the new setup, but in general I'm really happy. The sound was a bit bright for my taste, so I dialed the treble down 1dB (one of the many conveniences/advantages of the Dx 38) and that was an improvement. The 510/K-69 combo is a big step up from the K400/K-55V & CT125 pairing, but those were pretty good in the first place, so it's not like I went from garbage to gold, more like from silver to gold.

Roy's settings also give the LS bass a bit of a boost, so I was able to turn the sub down 2.5dB, which is a good thing, since the sub is just there to assist the mains.

[mikebse2a3]

The LS bass bin is set to roll off above 420Hz and the 510 horn is set to roll off below 470Hz, both at 24dB/octave. These are Roy's settings and it seems to work fine, but with my limited knowledge, I wonder if that leaves a dip between 420 and 470?

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Don't forget the goal is the Acoustical Output that results from the electrical settings from the DX38. Roy would have monitored the Acoustical Summing(amplitude and phase) between the LaScala Bass horn and the K510/K69A and Roy will have optimized the crossover region along with many other areas of the system using the anechoic chamber and test programs. So I'm sure there is no reason to be concerned about a dip based on the crossover corner frequency settings in the DX38.

Note: You might check with Roy to get his suggestion for your Delay settings if you haven't.

mike tn[]

[Islander]

I figured Roy would have it set so it sounds right, not so the settings look right, at least to my uninformed eyes. I'm not hearing any problems.

As for the delay, the difference in horn length between the La Scala bass bin and the 510 is around 35 inches, so that's how I set the delay on channels 2 and 4. On the song Take This Waltz by Leonard Cohen, where there's a deep organ line keeping the beat with the vocals, it immediately sounded tighter and more together, but I think it would be less obvious with most other music.

Since Roy's a pretty busy guy, I don't want to pester him just yet with some questions that I might answer for myself if I just listen a bit more.

Thanks for your input, mike! All this stuff that's new to me seems to be old hat to you.

[J.4knee]

Here's a front view of the 510 JubScala. The height to the top of the 510 horn is 46 inches, higher than the La Scala's 34.5-inch cabinet, but shorter than a Klipschorn's 52-inch cabinet. It seems to work well with my 8-foot ceilings. I've since moved the tweeters nearer to the outside edge of the LS cabinets for a bit more stereo separation. The split setup is convenient that way.

Lemme ask ya this. Is it possible to mount the K510/K69 combo in the La Scala top sectoin. Granted you'd have to do some serious cutting to do so but is it too big to make the cut or would it just sqeeze in? This set up really appeals to me.

[Arky]

This set up really appeals to me.

I'll tell ya, it sounds wonderful too.

[Islander]

Here's a front view of the 510 JubScala. The height to the top of the 510 horn is 46 inches, higher than the La Scala's 34.5-inch cabinet, but shorter than a Klipschorn's 52-inch cabinet. It seems to work well with my 8-foot ceilings. I've since moved the tweeters nearer to the outside edge of the LS cabinets for a bit more stereo separation. The split setup is convenient that way.

Lemme ask ya this. Is it possible to mount the K510/K69 combo in the La Scala top sectoin. Granted you'd have to do some serious cutting to do so but is it too big to make the cut or would it just sqeeze in? This set up really appeals to me.

Mounting the 510/K69 tweeters inside the La Scala cabinets would give a tidy look and a real upgrade in sound over the original squawkers and tweeters. The 510 horn is 9 inches tall and 15 inches wide, measured to its edges. The inside height of the LS top section is 10 inches, in my 1974 cabinets, at least, so it should be practical to fit the 510 horn in there. The opening in the front panel for the K400 is a bit over 16 inches wide, though, so to fill in the gaps you'd have to make up a pair of spacers about 5/8 inch wide to go on the sides of the 510 horns.

The other way would be to just make up entirely new front panels, maybe even routed to allow the 510 horns to sit flush, but removing the original panel without doing any damage to the cabinet would be tricky.

Also, the K-69 driver is a bit heavy, weighing nearly 11 pounds, so rather than hanging all that from the horn, you might want to either shorten the stand that comes with it, or make up a new one to suit the in-cabinet installation.

I'd originally thought of fitting the 510s inside the cabinets, but I'm starting to like the effect of having the higher tweeters. The added height seems to give a bigger sound, but I'd have to try them at the usual height to be positive about that, plus they now line up with the mid-line of the TV screen, so the sound and sight tie in better.

Of course, the quick and dirty way to check out the sound before you do any modifying would be to remove the K400 and the K-77, staple some grille cloth to the back of the La Scala top section front panel, and just screw the 510 horn into position. The K400's panel slot is about 5 1/2 inches high, while the opening in the 510 horn is around 6 3/4 inches high, so only a bit of it would be masked by the panel and the speakers would look sort of stock. Hope this is helpful.

[ClaudeJ1]

I'd originally thought of fitting the 510s inside the cabinets, but I'm starting to like the effect of having the higher tweeters. The added height seems to give a bigger sound, but I'd have to try them at the usual height to be positive about that, plus they now line up with the mid-line of the TV screen, so the sound and sight tie in better.

Try flipping the LaScalas upside down and put the horn on the floor piece with the metal feet. This will move the horn closer to the bass bin and keep it high without messing with the original stuff. No sawdust with me method!

claude

[IndyKlipschFan]

I am sure it is all wrong to most on here......

But having the Split La Scala's and the top section of the la scala split between a milk carton and a isolator pad I, too, experience a "better" La Scala sound myself in my HT.

So that's three Split La Scalas up front for Timbre.... and two of the Klipsch THX 120 subs too. It is seamless, and does put out a very dynamic clean sound too!

[IndyKlipschFan]

I am sorry for the bad picture... But your right, the added height issue really HELPS it to seem a MUCH bigger speaker. Also allows with a split version to keep it low enough to put a screen above the center as well using the top section beside the dog house bass section. ( + - 22" ). I slightly tilted up the center to hit where in my seatring position my head was.. Works great using a laser pointer.. hehehehehe

You swear these little adjustments here and there do not make much difference.... BUT THEY DO!

My guess is, if you can hide it or cover up the top section tastefully as is... maybe make a" fake top" for your 510??? You will keep it up there!

Mine are behind a cloth skrim so no one knows what I have anyhow..LOL

Maybe we call this... The "Elevated" Klipsch La Scala!

[Marvel]

Here's what you could do...

Open up the doghouse into the top section of the LS. Pull the K400/401 and tweeter out. Enclose the back and make a baffle for the front that has the ports to make the bass bin mod.

Turn it upside down and put the 510 horn on top. More bass and now a two way. How cool is that?

And, it would be hard to safely remove the regular baffle in the LS. I believe there ar ring nails around the perimeter holding it in place

[comet]

Marvel - Cool idea! That's literally thinking outside the box.