why is klipsch called fatiguing and diliked in other forums

[DrWho]

A speaker is an audio tool, and a Klipsch speaker is a high performance audio tool. If you aren't educated on how to properly use the tool and try to be conventional and just plug it in with high expectations.............you are bound to be disappointed. Klipsch, especially the Heritage line are "fussy". There are more amps that make those speakers sound bad, than good. You need to know what types and brands of amps to NOT connect them to.

Properly educated on use of the tools makes all the difference in the world. We here know that, but when folks don't "get it" they tend to diss the brand.

Totally agree....I might add that tbe concept of "tool" steals all the magic away which in itself is what most "audiophiles" love to dwell in.

[dtel]

if your stuck on only the really high price must be "special" brands to impress others

I'm sitting here, wondering if Oak MWM cabinets would be considered "special"?

Have you recently found your head stuck inside your 402??

YES MWM's were very special, when they were designed also disco and bell bottoms and platform shoes were also cool, really the only way to listen to them ! []

No but I have been literal caught inside the the bass bin. But it's not my 402 my wife says my head is stuck in. [:$]

The monkey likes the way they sound, and the monkey is cool so if he likes them were good, he usually just falls asleep listening and eating cookies, don't know why that is ?

[Islander]

YES MWM's were very special, when they were designed also disco and bell bottoms and platform shoes were also cool, really the only way to listen to them !

Sure, back then slide rules were the engineers' main tools, but they gave the same answers calculators give today: Klipsch rules!

[dtel]

Sure, back then slide rules were the engineers' main tools, but they gave the same answers calculators give today: Klipsch rules!

Your right PWK had a slide rule on his office wall about 7' long and probably 50 pounds, but it was PWK.

[Groomlakearea51]

I have nothing but bad memories of slide rules. Sort of like an extendable baton used by the nuns for beating us about the head and shoulders..... The downfall of corporal punishment in schools coincides with the arrival of the first calculators! It was a conspiracy!!

[H]

[Don Richard]

A lot of folks who post on other forums seem to walk in lockstep with the opinions of those who write for the high end audio publications. They tend to reiterate whatever is written and criticize stuff that they have never heard. Some of the reviewers and/or editors of these admit to having an anti-horn bias and will not review horn loaded speakers at all, unless they are made by Magico. The same reviewers also recommend magic wires, cable elevators, and Shakti Stones.

And the all of the lemmings followed the Piper to the sea.

[Mallette]

The downfall of corporal punishment in schools coincides with the arrival of the first calculators!

That's because any 5 or more scale slide rule also made a convenient disciplinary device far more effective than yer basic penguin issue ruler...

Dave

[Dennie]

A lot of folks who post on other forums seem to walk in lockstep with the opinions of those who write for the high end audio publications. They tend to reiterate whatever is written and criticize stuff that they have never heard. Some of the reviewers and/or editors of these admit to having an anti-horn bias and will not review horn loaded speakers at all, unless they are made by Magico. The same reviewers also recommend magic wires, cable elevators, and Shakti Stones.

And the all of the lemmings followed the Piper to the sea.

That is so true Don. I can't tell you how many times I heard (read) someone say....

Well, I've heard Klipsch are harsh or bright. I always ask "What did you think" and the responce is ususally the same, "I didn't listen to them because of all the negitive comments". I usually follow that with "Your Loss" and recommend they take some time and hear properly set up Klipsch speakers.

Dennie

[Audible Nectar]

I am TRULY convinced this was and is a "gear problem", from the 1970's to present. Klipsch needs gear that matches with the speakers.

Julian Hirsch didn't help any. Who's Julian Hirsch? He's that guy in Stereo Review that used to state that "all amplifiers sound the same". That "big lie" permutated into an idea that it was the KLIPSCH that was the problem, because as Julian said "all amps sound the same", so it HAD to be the speaker......right???

WRONG. But that "myth" has had untold effects on the audio enthusiast population at large, a misunderstanding that persists today. People who listen to Klipsch without investigating other methods of powering them end up walking away too soon and gioving up on them - and the "opinion" then persists into infinity.

We oft see evidence of this via "older" enthusiasts who come here after years of going through other gears, then rediscovering Klipsch by some accident and finding out what they missed. The detailed and specific solutions offered here are MUCH more effective that what many enthusiasts would have gotten at a dealer - but then again, that's because we can recommend from 50+ years of audio history the best gears and methods of making the Klipsch even better than most ever thought they could be.

I don't think in my ENTIRE lifetime of seeing Klipsch in DEALERS (from the early 1980's to early 90's in particular) I NEVER saw them hooked up to tube gear. EVER. That in and of itself explains how many "kept moving" from the brand back then. Then again, I saw a TON of Klipsch sold by being driven with Nakamichi STASIS gear (and to a lesser degree ADCOM) which did win over a certain amount of converts....but when I think back to that time I realize there was a host of good solutions that were never seen by prospective buyers. Once an enthusiast comes here, ALL solutions can be considered, which means a greater likelihood of happy ears.

[SonicSeeker]

Good afternoon,

Just a question if you dont mind.

First My gear I have a yamaha rx-z11 powering RF-7II mains RC-64II center SVS PB-13 ULTRA and 6 KSP-S6 surounds I use a Denon 3800BDCI for my music and movie via a HDMI hookup. I sold my chorus II speakers when I bought the rf-7's and I wish I would not for I felt the chorus were much fuller and richer sounding especially in the vocal's. My knowledge is limited and I am trying to get better educated, so here are my questions and any advice would be appreciated. Is my amp a good amp for Klipsch, Am I ever going to be satisfied with the RF-7'S (my original thought in buying them was so my surround would be better matched) OR should I go back to a cornscalla or klipschorn design. Nothing worse than spending money to upgrade and feel like you went backwords.

Thanks

[Groomlakearea51]

A lot of folks who post on other forums seem to walk in lockstep with the opinions of those who write for the high end audio publications. They tend to reiterate whatever is written and criticize stuff that they have never heard. Some of the reviewers and/or editors of these admit to having an anti-horn bias and will not review horn loaded speakers at all, unless they are made by Magico. The same reviewers also recommend magic wires, cable elevators, and Shakti Stones.

And the all of the lemmings followed the Piper to the sea.

A significant "problem" the so-called high end pubs have is that the writers and publishers have been intimidated by certain companies that will sue them if they give a poor review of a product. They generally will attempt to avoid that by simply not reviewing those products. But the issue is $$. Without advertising revenue from some of the larger deep pocket companies, the pubs would not survive. Thus the ubiquitous strange language reports containing such words as "enlightening", "deeper darks", "spatial clarity"; all of which are meaningless without a handy pocket "audiophool" translator...

A "review" can be an indicator of some quality, but unfortunately it becomes a "caveat emptor" situation. During my "travels" down the long road to audio "nirvana", I have listened to some otherwise crappily reviewed amps, and speakers, that - given the right room -, and the geometry of the set-up, sounded pretty good.

I'll always say, "Don't poop another's system, until you sat down and listened to it". It's simply rude. "Bashing" brands and products is self serving at the least, and the basher does nothing but put themself in the "lemming" pack. Not the same pack as the banner carriers of a brand, but certainly in a group of well intentioned, if but sycophantic, fanatics.

The "struggle" between tubes and solid state raises it's ugly "jihad" head every once in awhile. Not as much as in days gone by. Cables, interconnects and speaker wires still cause alot of folks to forge their audio plows into swords and take up the "cause" of whichever techno-prophet is delivering the message "du jour".

From a plebian point of view, most "equipment" we deal with is potentially equal until tested in battle; as in a sit-down and listen session. Unfortunately, so many of the folks lamenting on audio forums about brands and types as being less than "superbly defining" probably are doing nothing more than either echoing what they take as "common knowledge", or worse, engaging in "true believer" trumpeting in that transparently miserable practice of establishing their appropriate "credentials".

I do believe that it is quite difficult (if not impossible) for an end user, or for that matter a high-end pub reviewer to objectively say anything about the "quality" of a sound system, speakers, etc. Other than spec comparisons, analysis of the topology used, etc., quality (where they start using the weird words...) is subjective. The can present the specs, etc., describe the product, etc., but in the end, it's the jury who will decide. That's the buyer or user of that equipment.

Just some thoughts. Quad's original question is a good one. Many levels through which to consider the "why".

[H]

[Heritage_Head]

Good afternoon,

Just a question if you dont mind.

First My gear I have a yamaha rx-z11 powering RF-7II mains RC-64II center SVS PB-13 ULTRA and 6 KSP-S6 surounds I use a Denon 3800BDCI for my music and movie via a HDMI hookup. I sold my chorus II speakers when I bought the rf-7's and I wish I would not for I felt the chorus were much fuller and richer sounding especially in the vocal's. My knowledge is limited and I am trying to get better educated, so here are my questions and any advice would be appreciated. Is my amp a good amp for Klipsch, Am I ever going to be satisfied with the RF-7'S (my original thought in buying them was so my surround would be better matched) OR should I go back to a cornscalla or klipschorn design. Nothing worse than spending money to upgrade and feel like you went backwords.

Thanks

Even though I love the sound I get

from the rf-7ii if it’s not your taste I would go back to what you liked. The rf-7ii

wouldn’t be considered an upgrade to the chorus; it’s more of a lateral move if

you ask me. So if you liked the sound from the chorus better (and it sounds

like you do) I would probably go back. Denon makes good stuff and the 3808 is a

nice avr it’s probably just your taste one over the other.

[gagelle]

Just take a look at how high some of the older Klipsch speakers are bid up on Ebay. I think this is more suggestive than the people who say they dislike Klipsch speakers. I've been through many different speakers myself. Some were very good. But I didn't know anything about Klipsch until I bought the Epic CF3s, almost by accident, about 15 years ago. Joining this forum was also an education. The average audio store is sells home theater equipment with marginal audio characteristics.

Yesterday, I was lucky enough to find a double album of Glenn Gould piano music, from the 60s. It was brand new; never opened. I paid almost nothing for it. I put the Liszt transcription for piano of Beethoven's 5th Symphony on my son's turntable and my eyes filled with tears. I felt like the piano was in the room.

[Groomlakearea51]

That's my point! You are the jury! Well said!! [Y][Y][Y]

When someone says, "I have had this speaker for some period of time, this amp for some period of time, and played this music, and it sounds good, and this is why it sounded good to me", then the basic credentials for opining are now established; and they are fundamentally in a position to challenge the so-called experts.

The "experts" perhaps spent less than an hour with a product, likely in a room not set-up or with any consideration for the "test" speakers in mind (generic 12 x 12 studio room comes to mind), and with a "house" amp system. They will often always use a "reference" LP or CD that they like, and that's it.

To really get a good idea of what a speaker can (or cannot) do, requires being placed in the speaker's optimum position in the room, and the music to be heard needs to be an eclectic selection of "real music", not specialized, or "purpose recorded" CD's. That and.... how many high-end publication reviewers have the time to sit down and listen for several hours at a time, in the evenings, mornings; with others in the room, etc.

Sometimes a bad venue to listen to a speaker is "over at a friend's house" because the friend may not have the system set-up correctly. The worse venue is the "big box" stereo system listening rooms. Poor or improper placement, "dead acoustics", and I would suspect that the amps usually have the bass, mid, or treble "jacked" in order to make things as loud as possible.

I have been in the "listening rooms" on ocassion, over the years, and it is quite suspicious when the "best sounding" speaker also coincidentally happens to be the brand that they are pushing (that = higher sale commissions...), to the detriment of the others.

Case in point... old days, but still comes to mind. I was invited to one of my duty officers' homes. Cleaned up, drove over and in the living room were two things; first was his beautiful daughter who was totally off limits - under pain of death -, and.... a pair of Klipschorns. Not being able to properly court the former, I sat down and listened to the latter.

I was amazed. IIRC, the good lieutenant-colonel had a Mac amp, a Thorens TT, a Nakamichi CD and listened to music at a fairly low level. But that is what was impressive. The sound was really, really good, but was not loud. After the usual "what are they" and "where did you get them" questions, my OCD brain went into action.

Back in my "hovel" were two pairs of JBL 4312's and a pair of 4311's. Really good, but unless they were cranked up a bit, could not in any way come close to that K'horn pair. Friend of mine had a pair of Heresy's. He wanted to trade the Heresy's for the 4311's, so I went over and made that trade.

After fiddling around with placement, etc., they were "dialed in" with my amps (AU-919's). Much better, and I found myself listening to the Heresy's far more often than the 4312's (unless it was a "party night").

The "PX" system in Germany did not sell Klipsch. They were considered "high end", and they were sold in the "Audio-Photo Clubs (APC)". When I was in the Berlin APC, they usually had a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresy's on display, but never hooked up. The sales folks always pressed the JBL's, Altec's, Bose, etc. One salesman had told me that no-one listened to the Klipsch because they were overpriced, and they made almost no money from the sales.

After a few weeks in about September/October of 1979, I went back to the APC and standing up against the wall were a pair of K'horns. Not hooked up. I asked. Seems like they were a special order for the Army's mil attache in Warsaw. He had ordered a pair, but they sent a pair of black lacquer's instead of walnut, etc., and his SWMBO threw a fit (Colonels' wives are worse than the Generals....). The sales guy had no idea what to do with them and the manager told me they had to have at least $3600 for them. Too much.....

Went back the next month and there they sat.... Manager agreed to hook them up, but refused to move everything around and put them in the corners (which as it turned out was a very GOOD thing for me...) Of course they sounded like crap. But then again I knew better having done my homework....

Following month I walked in and the price was reduced to $2400. No takers and the sales guy who was my buddy told me that noone wanted them because they sounded like crap.... He also let me in on the secret... Seems like the good colonel who ordered them had made the mandatory 50%, non-refundable down payment of $1800 for them, and when his wife threw the temper tantrum, he had left and that was the last they saw of him.

Well.... I spoke with the manager again. I mentioned the fact that they already had the $1800 for them and if he would consider loweing the price, I would take the K'horns off their hands. He thought about and said that he had to at least have what the APC had paid Klipsch and the freight costs. He aso said he wanted to get rid of them as they were too big, sounded really crappy, and the APC never seemed to sell very many Klipsch speakers.

So.... I said how much and he said he'd take $1800 for them. Cash and carry.... I said I'd think about it.....

Waited for another month..... By now it was January of 1980. Went back in and said, $1800 would work, but only if he threw in the display 4313's that someone had scratched, busted a grill and now could not be sold at all. The guy was tired of me, Christmas was over and nobody was buying squat after Christmas... He said, "Take'em! Get them out of here, but have to unhook them and put them in the boxes yourself, we don't have the time of personnel to do it".

While packing back in the original boxes (which took about 4 hours...), I also discovered something that is very critical when auditioning speakers anywhere... Seems like they had hooked one of the K'horns up out of phase, and "forgot" to hook up the bass bin on the other.....

Of course, after 4 trips to get them back (piece by piece) and properly hooking them up, placing in the corners, etc., I now had my first pair of K'horns. Still do and they are now in my son's room along with the first pair of Heresy's that I traded for the old 4311's.

The moral of the story? Two really... First, I had something by which to compare (the good LTC's K'horns in his home), although my interest was probably in his daughter at first.... and second, never assume that what sounds good or bad in the "demo room" is properly hooked up, etc. No wonder folks would consider a speaker type as "fatiguing" or "disliked".

I still have my 4312's. They are quite useful, but that's another story! LOL!!!

The good colonel eventually married the daughter off to some young lieutenant fresh out of West Point, and I would venture to say if not wager that she insisted on Klipsch to the spouse at some point! []

[H]

[Marvel]

Back in my "hovel" were two pairs of JBL 4312's and a pair of 4311's. Really good, but unless they were cranked up a bit, could not in any way come close to that K'horn pair. Friend of mine had a pair of Heresy's. He wanted to trade the Heresy's for the 4311's, so I went over and made that trade.

I sitll have my 4311s, and they don't begin to compare to the LS. I think they really compare favorably with Heresy speakers, but they sure aren't as efficient. They do get better cranked up a bit.

Bruce

[Islander]

A lot of folks who post on other forums seem to walk in lockstep with the opinions of those who write for the high end audio publications. They tend to reiterate whatever is written and criticize stuff that they have never heard. Some of the reviewers and/or editors of these admit to having an anti-horn bias and will not review horn loaded speakers at all, unless they are made by Magico. The same reviewers also recommend magic wires, cable elevators, and Shakti Stones.

There seems to be a similar anti-direct-drive bias when it comes to turntables. When was the last time you saw a review of one? One of the British magazines, Hi-Fi World, does some tests on a modified SL-1200, but I've never seen anything in a North American publication.

"It has to vibrate, the motor is attached to the platter!" is one objection, and "The specs are set up to make it look good, but it really couldn't be any good, because the motor is attached to the platter.", is the other statement you hear most often, nearly always from someone who has never heard a good direct-drive turntable.

There's also "That's a DJ turntable, not a hi-fi turntable.", which says more about the speaker's bias than the T/T's sound.

[Wuchak]

When I first brough home my Chorus I's I had never listened to Klipsch before. I bought them because my Dad who lives out of state bought Forte II's and raved about them. I had to try horns. The Chorus I's were so revealing that it took me a while before I could listen to them for more than an hour. I would get a sonic hangover. I was running them with an Anthem Integrated 1 tube amp. The mids and highs were sweet but there was TMI. It was like when I first got a big screen TV and would get a headache for the first few weeks from watching it. I had to adjust. Now I can listen to them all day and bask in the glorious sound. I have also fine tuned their placement in the room to a 1/4 inch. It took a few weeks but it was worth the effort.

[gagelle]

Hi Wuchak,

Jus curious: did you buy the Chorus 1s new?

[Wuchak]

Nope. I scored them for $150 on CL last summer.

[gagelle]

Great deal!

Have you done work on them? The reason I ask is that I've read several posts on the forum about the sound becomming unbalanced on older klipsch speakers, producing a shrill irritating midrange. There is one person who claims they were made that way due to cost cutting--that the whole crossover setup is defective. He makes a kit to correct this problem. I forget his name but you may be familiar with some of his posts. There have been many discussions over this issue. I was going to upgrade my Fortes with some of Crites products but I only use them in the rear of my surround system. You may know all of this stuff but thought I'd mention it.