what's wrong with LS II?!

[Arash]

it's been two weeks that first La Scala II speakers landed on our country. I was invited to see (hear) them as the most Klipschophile person in Iran. I went there, straight ahead. She (LS II) was setting there humbly. source was a CD player and Macintosh amplifier and some tough speaker cables. acoustic of the room was so so. not bad. I've been given the best seat, front row, center.

Sound:

they sounded sooooo bad, I couldn't imagine what was happening! they even didn't get any clone to the sound of old LS and CW I got with much cheaper hand-made SE and cheap speaker cables!

I don't know what happened! I'm just amazed. I think something was wrong, maybe Mcintosh was not right about LSIIs

despite all the negative feedback in the listening session, I felt I had an moral obligation to defense Klipsch because I knew Klipsch is fine so I started to put the blame on the Mcintosh. we set another appointment, this time I'm gonna take my own 2A3 3.5wpc SE tube amp there to connect them to LS:

[CECAA850]

Did someone make sure that there wasn't anything wired out of phase?

[Islander]

Something certainly must have been wrong. I first heard my La Scala IIs at the home of shindosan, their previous owner. His listening room was well setup for good sound, and they did sound very good. I bought them and brought them home that day.

The speakers were powered with tube gear from Shindo Labs, which is definitely premium gear. McIntosh equipment should also sound very good.

Compared with first-generation La Scalas, the bass was deeper and more full, and the vocals were very clear, especially off-axis, which was not the case with the originals, which are more directional.

What specifically was wrong with the sound of the speakers you heard? I wonder if the problem could have been as simple as getting one speaker out of phase? The leads could have been incorrectly connected at two places: at the binding posts on the backs of the HF cabinets, and at the binding posts on the tops of the LF cabinets, in the dark between the two boxes.

EDIT: looks like CECAA850 thought of the same thing a few seconds earlier.

[Coytee]

Compared with first-generation La Scalas, the bass was deeper and more full,

I fully agree with this. I've not heard them enough to opine on their off-axis sound. I've owned LaScalas for a really long time though and feel the LSII's sound like they have a full octave lower bass.

In addition to perhaps out of phase, I wonder if maybe something came loose in the crossover? I'm going to presume those took some effort to get shipped to you (their owner). They might have been jostled during the trip and perhaps something in the crossover needs looked at?

You're ok in my book defending their sound.... once you figure out the issue, you will be proven right.

[garyrc]

How would you describe the sound you heard (other than bad)?

It will be interesting to hear from you about how they sound with your amplifier.

Please take some of your own CDs in to the next listening session, and, if practical, a few vinyl records and a few SACDs.

You mentioned a LS (I) and a CW ... do you have them set up now in your home?

I have a Belle Klipsch center channel, flanked by Klipschorns. The Belle should sound a lot like the LS I, and I have heard many LS Is. The Belle sounds fine, except it doesn't have much bass below about 50 Hz. There actually is a little peak at 60 Hz. I would expect the Belle, LS I, and LS II to sound more "up front" than the CW. I prefer the sound of Klipschorns to the LS I and the Belle. Because of the extra, very clean, bass the Khorns sound better balanced to me.

As you probably know, Stereophile magazine gave the LS II a very good review a few years ago. They rated it "Class A," for speakers that don't go all the way down in the bass. The reiewer, judging it only by ear, also said, "exceptionally smooth midrange and treble and spacious soundstage ... rich, warm, a tad overripe in the bass, reticent on top ... dynamic as all get out (on very low power) and images surprisingly well. Very pleasant to listen to ..." The head of Cary audio visited when the reviewer was evaluating, and they both agreed that the LS II was "fun."

I have no idea what "a tad overripe in the bass" means.

Good luck, and please let us know what you think when you hear them again.

[Arash]

the weak point of the sound was low frequency. the bass was somehow rippled, as if K-33 was struggling in the dog house, the sound came out as if you are watching a movie at 5 frames per second! mid-range was normal and trebles were revealing well. everything was good except that bass I mentioned which dominated all the sound. I was experiencing listening fatigue after 10-15 minutes! now I think maybe it was something about phase of the speakers. they sounded like woofs were pushing backward!

[Arash]

Compared with first-generation La Scalas, the bass was deeper and more full,

I fully agree with this. I've not heard them enough to opine on their off-axis sound. I've owned LaScalas for a really long time though and feel the LSII's sound like they have a full octave lower bass.

In addition to perhaps out of phase, I wonder if maybe something came loose in the crossover? I'm going to presume those took some effort to get shipped to you (their owner). They might have been jostled during the trip and perhaps something in the crossover needs looked at?

You're ok in my book defending their sound.... once you figure out the issue, you will be proven right.

I'm sure nothing is wrong with LS but the whole system sounded really bad there. I'm gonna work something out about this because I can't tolerate someone saying something bad about Klipsch and I don't want this pr of LS be the last pair of Heritage ever imported to Iran.

[Arash]

thanks CECAA850 and Islander for your opinion. I'll be working on them and I'll check the cables to see if something is wrong

How would you describe the sound you heard (other than bad)?

It will be interesting to hear from you about how they sound with your amplifier.

Please take some of your own CDs in to the next listening session, and, if practical, a few vinyl records and a few SACDs.

You mentioned a LS (I) and a CW ... do you have them set up now in your home?

I have a Belle Klipsch center channel, flanked by Klipschorns. The Belle should sound a lot like the LS I, and I have heard many LS Is. The Belle sounds fine, except it doesn't have much bass below about 50 Hz. There actually is a little peak at 60 Hz. I would expect the Belle, LS I, and LS II to sound more "up front" than the CW. I prefer the sound of Klipschorns to the LS I and the Belle. Because of the extra, very clean, bass the Khorns sound better balanced to me.

As you probably know, Stereophile magazine gave the LS II a very good review a few years ago. They rated it "Class A," for speakers that don't go all the way down in the bass. The reiewer, judging it only by ear, also said, "exceptionally smooth midrange and treble and spacious soundstage ... rich, warm, a tad overripe in the bass, reticent on top ... dynamic as all get out (on very low power) and images surprisingly well. Very pleasant to listen to ..." The head of Cary audio visited when the reviewer was evaluating, and they both agreed that the LS II was "fun."

I have no idea what "a tad overripe in the bass" means.

Good luck, and please let us know what you think when you hear them again.

I described the bass problem in previous posts. yes I have LS and CW and also Bob's CS here. I'm hearing some hi-end sound connecting them to low watt SE amps.

I'd love to know what does "a tad overripe in the bass" means! maybe it's something about TAD drivers or something

thanks,

[CECAA850]

It's also possible that the speaker wires are correct but the woofers were wired out of phase. I'd check the wiring from source to drivers.

[garyrc]

the weak point of the sound was low frequency. the bass was somehow rippled, as if K-33 was struggling in the dog house, the sound came out as if you are watching a movie at 5 frames per second!

... sounded like woofs were pushing backward!

Or one pushing backward while the other is pushing forward.

Hopefully the place you heard them will check -- or let you check -- the phase of the LS IIs, and if that doesn't fix the problem, the phase of the woofers only, as CECAA850 said.

I did hear some out of phase woofers once. On the first note of the opening of 2001: A Space Odyssey, which I believe is a four octave C chord that extends deep into the bass, they semed to make a beating or an "on again off again" pumping sound that did, indeed, sound like movie at 5 frames per second looks.

[CECAA850]

IF you find that one woofer is wired differently than the other, be sure you don't change the wiring on the wrong one. You will then have 2 woofers in phase with each other but out of phase with the mids and tweets. Pay atention to colors and labels along the way.

[The Dude]

I could agree with the out of phase of just one speaker. I have never herd this before, until I installed some speakers in my friends car. Something just didn't seem right after going on line to find out I had one of the speakers wired wrong. When I switched it, it was a night and day difference. We couldn't believe our ears, that just one simple mistake made such a huge difference. Good luck I hope it turns around, and you do prove that Klipsch makes a wonderful product as we all know they do.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I could agree with the out of phase of just one speaker. I have never herd this before, until I installed some speakers in my friends car. Something just didn't seem right after going on line to find out I had one of the speakers wired wrong. When I switched it, it was a night and day difference. We couldn't believe our ears, that just one simple mistake made such a huge difference. Good luck I hope it turns around, and you do prove that Klipsch makes a wonderful product as we all know they do.

The stereophile test CD, which can be downloaded on the internet from several places, will let you know if you are out of phase for your entire speakers. Image that is dead center goes away when they go out of phase.

[mark1101]

Probably nothing wrong at all with the speakers. If they came from the factory then they passed the test. The placement looks poor. There should be nothing in between the speakers. Roy Delgado has always emphasized this but hardly anyone pays attention to it. Try it sometime and see how the bass and image improves. The speakers to the outside are too close effectively enclosing the lascalas. Get them away from the lascalas. There is also probably a mismatch between the driving equipment and the lascalas which is probably the biggest problem. Some equipment just sounds like crap with Klipsch,

JWC had a brand new pair of Lascala 2s and we ran into this exact situation. They sounded like crap with certain amps we tried and honestly I just thought they were not a very good sounding speaker. He sold them.

My guess..........nothing wrong. Put them in corners, nothing in between them. Try some different equipement and stay away from high current ss. That's probably the best you can do.

[Deang]

"Roy Delgado has always emphasized this but hardly anyone pays attention to it."

And where does the esteemed Mr. Delgado share this vital information -- certainly not here.

Tell Roy I said to get his rear end back in here and to quit cowering behind that big horn.

[mark1101]

When I FIRST heard that there should be nothing in between the speakers.........I think you were sitting in front of me. []

[moray james]

Ha Ha that's a great come back. Would be nice if Roy would do the honors and drop in and splain things again. Show us some fishing photos. Talk abot the good stuff he designed and most of all share some good old stories about PWK.

There was the story DJK posted recently and while I would imagine it was made up it is great and I wonder if PWK ever heard this one?

" Walking down the street, Paul sees Amar (Bose), he turns and faces a wall and
yells "Hey Amar, how's business?". Amar cups his hands around his mouth
and yells "Hey Paul, I can't understand a thing you said". Paul turns
towards Amar, cups his hands around his mouth, and yells "Have a nice
day!".

Roy come on home. Best regards Moray James.

[Deang]

When I FIRST heard that there should be nothing in between the speakers.........I think you were sitting in front of me.

Touché

[muel]

It makes me cringe to see speakers and equipment slapped up against the wall in a line. It is unlikely that is the ideal placement. The resonance that I had at some low frequencies with Lascala (I) while I had them improperly place was quite horrible! Strange that Cornwalls in the exact same spot didn't have the issue as bad. Putting them on the diagonal and pulling them more into the (almost square) room cleared everything up. I was hearing more bass and cleaner sound than I ever had before.

I'm not saying this is the proper placement for these... just that they have to work at it more to find where the speakers and listeners should sit. Perhaps Lascalas suffer more than other models when poorly placed. I can attest that the difference between bad and decent placement is astounding!

[Islander]

I'd love to know what does "a tad overripe in the bass" means! maybe it's something about TAD drivers or something

A "tad" is a small quantity, and "overripe" may mean "a bit stronger-tasting than you like", so "a tad overripe in the bass" may mean there's a small bump or peak in the response in the bass region.

It has nothing to do with TAD drivers.

Some audiophile magazines use pretty odd language, describing sound as "whitish", or "more yin than yang", for example. It sometimes seems you have to be reading the particular magazine from the first issue, in order to be familiar with the cryptic and very non-technical terms they use.