mikebse2a3 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Last night I added a 128uF electrolytic in parallel with the K-33. I was curious to see what the effect on the resonance might be. Sure enough, it was greatly reduced, but then something else didn't sound right and I need to get my laptop down there to see what's going on. The real problem right now is that I'm eight builds back and can't do any serious testing until I get these networks done. Hey Dean the 128uf addition just increased the crossover slope and shifted the crossover point lower so it's not surprising things didn't sound right. There are actually multiply things at play here and one is the sidewall resonance and a second is the fact that the horn is most efficient in the 100hz-200hz region. The sidewall resonance can easily be heard/felt if you run a sweep tone through the LF. The sound one hears during music is an intermittent buzz/rattle when it gets excited and can make you think a side panel glue joint is loose To some extent you can just tap with your fingers the middle of the front edge of the side panel and excite it. I've also heard it sound like a cracked ball bat or 2x4 as a couple of examples of similar sounds. A couple of ways to minimize this is to mechanically damp the panel by bracing or increasing the thickness/stiffness of the side panel (ie: LaScala II). The second issue of the peak efficiency of the horn being in the 100hz-200hz region means a smoother frequency balance can be achieved when using a passive crossover if a series (LCR)resonate network (similar to what Klipsch implemented in the AK-4 network for the KHorn LF as a good example) is used to reduce this response peak for a more accurate tonal balance from the LF horn. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted July 9, 2014 Klipsch Employees Share Posted July 9, 2014 I see a lot of posts from people who are reinforcing their bass bins. I remember reading a Dope from Hope or something to that effect where PWK explained why that was a bad idea. Does anyone remember the document? Hey Dean.........not sure what document you might be thinking of but I can tell you that I had a conversation with Jim Hunter shortly after buying some new LaScalas in 1984 about the sidewall resonance and he and Klipsch was well aware of it and suggested a brace from the dog house to sidewall as one solution. He also explained that due to how the majority of the LaScalas were used(ie: sound reinforcement) and production issues of the dog house not being perfectly centered thus making each brace would have to be custom fit so they hadn't put it into production. I will say that if one does the bracing there might be some benefit to tweeking the crossover as my understanding was done in part for the LaScala ll due to it's stiffer sidewalls. miketn Yeah, I hear it, even at moderate levels. It's irritating to be sure. It's like the resonance is being used to augment the low frequency performance. I'd forgotten how the character of these speakers (Heritage) change as the volume goes up. As long as I keep it below 90dB, it sounds very nice, and I can't really find much to complain about -- most of the complaints would be centered about the fact that my poorly recorded material has been rendered unlistenable -- something I think we're all used to by now. I'm double handicapped. I'm not a wood worker, and I'm not an engineer with a lot of cool test equipment -- so I can't properly design new filter arrangements. I know my limitations and I'm not embarrassed by them. With good numbers and reliable plots, I've have managed to stumble into some simple things that work pretty good. Having Bob, Dennis and John willing to accommodate me, provide input, and do testing for me, has been nothing short of awesome. Last night I added a 128uF electrolytic in parallel with the K-33. I was curious to see what the effect on the resonance might be. Sure enough, it was greatly reduced, but then something else didn't sound right and I need to get my laptop down there to see what's going on. The real problem right now is that I'm eight builds back and can't do any serious testing until I get these networks done. Did you try a 124.57 uF cap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 My most favorite Heritage product is the La Scala. I would have a pair of those with well blended subs over a Khorn. That room of Deans is small and may benefit from some room gain on bass to be w/o subs. You would have to be there to know. Nice to see a thread with props to bring the scala to life. I too have heard Mark1101's la scala with a Scott. Mighty fine. My past scalas had ALK universal with the "hovlands" (when that was the thing). I loved those. I actually liked them better than LS II's (Don't kill me). Can't support what Dean is saying here.... I will say from my fiddle experience...... "Caps make a difference". jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Last night I added a 128uF electrolytic in parallel with the K-33. I was curious to see what the effect on the resonance might be. Sure enough, it was greatly reduced, but then something else didn't sound right and I need to get my laptop down there to see what's going on. The real problem right now is that I'm eight builds back and can't do any serious testing until I get these networks done. Okay now why can I not find this original post by Dean......but my point here is yea Dean get your butt to work and get my new X-overs built Your worse then me at least I waste my time talking arguing about audio on the phone and email rather then playing with my own system then posting about it on the forum. Edited July 10, 2014 by NOSValves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) "Can't support what Dean is saying here.... I will say from my fiddle experience...... "Caps make a difference"." Of course they do. Where did you get the idea that I don't think that? You're right about the room gain, it's substantial. They sound excellent. It's nice seeing you posting, and hope things are good with you. Okay Craig, I finally got this list whittled down a bit. Jay's are almost done, and then Jan the Swede is next. Mike is after Jan, and then you. Maybe you can talk Mike into letting me bump you up. I'm not going to lie, but I'm a little nervous about that build. I should have built and used a beta tester first like I usually do - but as it is - Jan and you will have to give me the verdict on this build, based purely on my math skills, and we all know how great those are. If they perform anything like I'm hearing over here, you may be rethinking that second set of networks, because to my ears, they aren't even in the same class. I told my son that it's really an intangible - I can't find the words to describe why I like this network better. I did some of Van Halen's first album last night, and I really lit it up just for fun - totally awesome. I then put in a really nice pair of SuperX networks we just finished, and sure, it sounded great, not a thing there to complain about - but after two songs, I just wanted to get the other networks back into the system. I just love these modified Type AAs with the Jupiter capacitors. If I can replicate this "sound" for the BMS/Eliptrac/Volti horn set ups - I would be pretty happy. I like Blues just fine, "it's still Rock and Roll to me." Edited July 10, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The floor up here is shaking, because, well, you know -- LaScalas don't have any bass. I'll stop by and drop off my Quarter Pies with K-33's in them. Just stick them under your LaScalas and move the woofer connection. Then use your excellent audio memory to describe what real bass (without all the passive or active EQ required by Jubes) should sound like or the fact that LaScalas are NOT horns below 104 Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 second is the fact that the horn is most efficient in the 100hz-200hz region. Yes, it's called a +7 db peak at 140 Hz.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) My most favorite Heritage product is the La Scala. I would have a pair of those with well blended subs over a Khorn. After owning two pairs of Khorns, several pairs of LaScalas, MWMs, and now my Quarter Pies, I TOTALLY agree with your comment, James. The LaScala is way more phase coherent and direct vs. the Khorn, which needs a sub anyway. Even though I seem to gripe about the 140 Hz. peak in comparison to my Quarter Pies, the LaScala does enough good things to make is a reasonable compromise. This seems to support Dr. Earl Geddes notion that what is most important is the sound between 100 and 10,000 Hz. Edited July 10, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The floor up here is shaking, because, well, you know -- LaScalas don't have any bass. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA or as we say in espanol JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 "This seems to support Dr. Earl Geddes notion that what is most important is the sound between 100 and 10,000 Hz." Max Potter told me the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 "This seems to support Dr. Earl Geddes notion that what is most important is the sound between 100 and 10,000 Hz." Max Potter told me the same thing. All that being said, I still prefer my Quarter Pies for bass over any Klipsch product except the MWM. But it is a DIY and not a Klipsch Factory product, therefore, doesn't count in that context. Bass is the most difficult thing to get right, no matter what components you use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Max Potter told me the same thing. He was a friend of PWK's right? His obit shows he died in 2010 at 75, so he way younger. When did he work for Western Electric? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Not sure, but PK relied on him for his knowledge of microphones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) "Can't support what Dean is saying here.... I will say from my fiddle experience...... "Caps make a difference"." Of course they do. Where did you get the idea that I don't think that? You're right about the room gain, it's substantial. They sound excellent. It's nice seeing you posting, and hope things are good with you. Okay Craig, I finally got this list whittled down a bit. Jay's are almost done, and then Jan the Swede is next. Mike is after Jan, and then you. Maybe you can talk Mike into letting me bump you up. I'm not going to lie, but I'm a little nervous about that build. I should have built and used a beta tester first like I usually do - but as it is - Jan and you will have to give me the verdict on this build, based purely on my math skills, and we all know how great those are. If they perform anything like I'm hearing over here, you may be rethinking that second set of networks, because to my ears, they aren't even in the same class. I told my son that it's really an intangible - I can't find the words to describe why I like this network better. I did some of Van Halen's first album last night, and I really lit it up just for fun - totally awesome. I then put in a really nice pair of SuperX networks we just finished, and sure, it sounded great, not a thing there to complain about - but after two songs, I just wanted to get the other networks back into the system. I just love these modified Type AAs with the Jupiter capacitors. If I can replicate this "sound" for the BMS/Eliptrac/Volti horn set ups - I would be pretty happy. I like Blues just fine, "it's still Rock and Roll to me." Sure glad I read your entire post..I hit the first reference to "Jan" and thought you meant "January" I almost came out guns a blazing lol....hey I'm fine with whatever the schedule you end up with..unlike you I am not taking your newly refound benefit of large format speakers in a serious manner I'm sure these new networks will sound great but no way will they be more than a sideways move that gives in one area the not in another. I will absolutely be having the Jupiter's installed in my Super X's you forget I have Belle's and my frakenscala's. I'm not totally happy with the V-cap film and oils in the Belles...Yea rock is blues not the reverse...without blues rock would not exist... Edited July 11, 2014 by NOSValves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 There are no other colors without the blues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) No colors without Blues... there is no blues without gospel... there is no gospel without Psalms. Edited July 11, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 "I'm not totally happy with the V-cap film and oils in the Belles..." An easy fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 What are you not liking about the V-cap film and oils? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Craig bought some nice Belles that came with some networks I built. The networks are Type AAs without zeners. Oil or not, they are still metallized caps, and the mids are probably a little too forward (subjectively). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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