How loud do you listen?

[Youthman]

It's not the super low stuff at 115 db that kills your ears though, its the higher stuff. I used to be able to hit 132 db in my car and I maxed it out all the time.

I'm not sure I follow that logic.  Sound Pressure is Sound Pressure, whether it's high frequencies or low frequencies.  I can't see how 132db of bass cannot be damaging to an unprotected ear.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I'm not sure I follow that logic.  Sound Pressure is Sound Pressure, whether it's high frequencies or low frequencies.  I can't see how 132db of bass cannot be damaging to an unprotected ear.

Listen to a 30 hz test tone at 132 db then listen to a cymbal crash at 132 db and tell me which one hurts worse. Yes generally speaking that many decibels is harmful, but all decibels are not equal. I would take a strong bass signal over a not so strong gunshot or cymbal crash any day.

Edited December 27, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[derrickdj1]

It's not the super low stuff at 115 db that kills your ears though, its the higher stuff. I used to be able to hit 132 db in my car and I maxed it out all the time.

 

All of it can damage your hearing.  It just seems more tolerable with sub 20 Hz stuff.

[wvu80]

 

I hit reference level once, with earplugs on, for a short time. That's a stupid loud level.

What do you consider "reference level"?  I thought Reference is what you are "supposed" to watch movies at?  I've always been confused at the whole "Reference Level" concept.

 

 

I have the same question.  On my Onk 717 Audyssey sets the speakers relative to Reference, which it specifies is 82 on the dial.  I don't know if that is DB, but when the volume goes to 82, the on-screen display tells me that is THX Reference level.

 

I tried to listen to Star Trek Out of Darkness at reference 82 and I couldn't do it, it was waaaay too loud, like the voices were shouting at each other instead of talking.  I tend to look for a comfortable level for listening to voice, which is the loudness of voice in real life, and maybe just a bit louder for movies.  I've never measured with a DB meter.

 

OTOH I have some Blu-ray music I like to have just a bit hotter than 82, but at 85 it is LOUD, but I like this particular music that way, because that how it sounds live!.

 

For TV watching I listen at a very low level.  My wife likes it that way, and frankly by using good speakers, the voice is so clear at lower levels we find we don't have to turn it up to hear dialog.  My wife finds it more relaxing that way.

 

I would say my listening level overall is 60% low, 20% mid, 20% reference level high.

Edited December 27, 2014 by wvu80

[Scrappydue]

Let me tell you guys all the main issue. I used to be a firm believer in all receivers calibrating and level matching and what not. Everything was the same volume as long as say everyone watched a movie at -15db. NOT THE CASE ANYMORE!

My avs buddies just had a big get together to do a eq comparison between 7 or 8 different companies. Audyssey, ypao, mcacc, anthem, trinninov, and a couple others.

Well usually the Avs guys are really big on things being setup perfectly to make sure results cannot be skewed. Well upon hours and hours of setup my buddy discovered a huge issue. Every receiver after calibration had different volumes. They ranged 20db differences at reference levels.

I have a buddy with a pioneer elite and I have watched numerous things at his house at -12 and sound easily as loud as mine at -5 which is where I watch some stuff at.

It bs that everyone doesn't have a standard. Considering it's all based on being a certain decibel below a fixed level they should all be exactly the same. The problem comes into when you start adding things like dynamic eq, and other eq stuff. All that stuff totally alters a flat, level matched system. I find myself watching quieter since I have the cinema stuff unless I am demoing. It's good for my ears for sure. For a while I found myself watching -5 to -2 for entire movies. That is just too much. Like being on a flight deck of an aircraft carrier all over again. That stuff already damaged my hearing enough. Can't be doing more to myself.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Scrappydue

[Paducah Home Theater]

Let me tell you guys all the main issue. I used to be a firm believer in all receivers calibrating and level matching and what not. Everything was the same volume as long as say everyone watched a movie at -15db. NOT THE CASE ANYMORE!

My avs buddies just had a big get together to do a eq comparison between 7 or 8 different companies. Audyssey, ypao, mcacc, anthem, trinninov, and a couple others.

Well usually the Avs guys are really big on things being setup perfectly to make sure results cannot be skewed. Well upon hours and hours of setup my buddy discovered a huge issue. Every receiver after calibration had different volumes. They ranged 20db differences at reference levels.

I have a buddy with a pioneer elite and I have watched numerous things at his house at -12 and sound easily as loud as mine at -5 which is where I watch some stuff at.

It bs that everyone doesn't have a standard. Considering it's all based on being a certain decibel below a fixed level they should all be exactly the same. The problem comes into when you start adding things like dynamic eq, and other eq stuff. All that stuff totally alters a flat, level matched system. I find myself watching quieter since I have the cinema stuff unless I am demoing. It's good for my ears for sure. For a while I found myself watching -5 to -2 for entire movies. That is just too much. Like being on a flight deck of an aircraft carrier all over again. That stuff already damaged my hearing enough. Can't be doing more to myself.

I can see Audessey vs. whatever Pioneer has vs. whatever Yamaha has vs. whatever Onkyo has would be different. Yeah I agree it's BS, either adhere to THX standards or just have a standard 0-100 volume knob. I halfway trust Audessey XT32 since its supposed to be the standard for residential stuff but I have no doubt that other flavors are significantly different.

Regardless, if you get done with a movie and your head is ringing and you can't hear like you usually can for a day or more, the stuff is up too loud. I screwed up my hearing in 3-gun competitions, stupid rifles, its just not worth the loss, I'd do anything to get it back. An extra 5-10 db on your movie definitely isn't worth it. Turn it up enough to where the dialogue is clear, and stop.

Edited December 27, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Youthman]

Everything was the same volume as long as say everyone watched a movie at -15db. NOT THE CASE ANYMORE!

I remember having a similar discussion a long time ago when I had a Yamaha RX-V1800 and guys were saying they were listening at 0db on their dial and the absolute loudest I would listen was around -10db and that was really uncomfortable.  I too believe that receivers do not calibrate reference the same.

[derrickdj1]

Reference level of 85-105 for the speakers is what the artist or film studio has to play with.  They can record their movie in that range.  The whole movie could be at 100 db in theory.  The close space of a HT makes it nearly impossible to watch at reference levels

[Mallette]

If you are into high fidelity, the answer is simple:  You listen at the level of the actual performance.  Less or more is not high fidelity by definition.

 

Dave

[Gorm]

The highest I've had my subs was nearly 121 on the RS meeter (probably not accurate), It was FAR too loud for me. Luckily I was trying to max them out and I had ear muffs on.

 

For regular listening on the 2 channel in the upstairs room its probably about 80-85 DB. Its very easy to turn it up too far though being a smaller room for the size of the Cornscalas.

[NBPK402]

We usually listen to movies at -20 to -10 depending on the movie... Now music is another matter. Some music sounds best at -20 and some sounds best  -0, which as you know doesnt relate to movie levels at all. I put on a music video the other day and ran it at 0, and it was only hitting 100db, and it was LOUD! It was so loud I would not listen to it for more than a couple of minutes at that level.. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by ellisr63

[NBPK402]

 

Let me tell you guys all the main issue. I used to be a firm believer in all receivers calibrating and level matching and what not. Everything was the same volume as long as say everyone watched a movie at -15db. NOT THE CASE ANYMORE!

My avs buddies just had a big get together to do a eq comparison between 7 or 8 different companies. Audyssey, ypao, mcacc, anthem, trinninov, and a couple others.

Well usually the Avs guys are really big on things being setup perfectly to make sure results cannot be skewed. Well upon hours and hours of setup my buddy discovered a huge issue. Every receiver after calibration had different volumes. They ranged 20db differences at reference levels.

I have a buddy with a pioneer elite and I have watched numerous things at his house at -12 and sound easily as loud as mine at -5 which is where I watch some stuff at.

It bs that everyone doesn't have a standard. Considering it's all based on being a certain decibel below a fixed level they should all be exactly the same. The problem comes into when you start adding things like dynamic eq, and other eq stuff. All that stuff totally alters a flat, level matched system. I find myself watching quieter since I have the cinema stuff unless I am demoing. It's good for my ears for sure. For a while I found myself watching -5 to -2 for entire movies. That is just too much. Like being on a flight deck of an aircraft carrier all over again. That stuff already damaged my hearing enough. Can't be doing more to myself.

I can see Audessey vs. whatever Pioneer has vs. whatever Yamaha has vs. whatever Onkyo has would be different. Yeah I agree it's BS, either adhere to THX standards or just have a standard 0-100 volume knob. I halfway trust Audessey XT32 since its supposed to be the standard for residential stuff but I have no doubt that other flavors are significantly different.

Regardless, if you get done with a movie and your head is ringing and you can't hear like you usually can for a day or more, the stuff is up too loud. I screwed up my hearing in 3-gun competitions, stupid rifles, its just not worth the loss, I'd do anything to get it back. An extra 5-10 db on your movie definitely isn't worth it. Turn it up enough to where the dialogue is clear, and stop.

 

That is what we usually do with our movies... Which is why we are at -20 most of the time. If it is late at night I listen at -25 even though I don't need to worry about noise.

[Youthman]

It's also interesting that the mains and the sub do not seem to turn up and down equally. If I turn down the volume, the dialogue gets soft but the bass is still pretty strong and no longer sounds level matched. Near the end of the movie, I began to feel it was a bit loud so I turned it down 10dB but the sub still was cranking pretty loud.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Just to keep things straight from where I'm coming from....I'm not going off my AVR's dial. When I say -18 dB REF that means something entirely different than -18 dB on my amplifier's volume scale.

 

-18 dB REF means that if, for whatever reason, the signal peaks at -0 dB FS through the AVR, I'll meter out at the listening position at no more than 87 dB SPL (105-18) from the mains / center and 97 dB SPL from my sub (115-18). Plenty loud for sure, but not moving my clothing by a good stretch yet.

 

I can't vouch for what others' software does, but with the calibration procedure the operator is either supposed to note the value at reference level SPL and subtract from there on out, or if the AVR is capable, tare / re-zero the volume scale. That makes the numbers useful for the sake of comparison. This is all because regardless of what the amp is capable of, the speakers and the room are also factors in the equation.

 

All for naught if you don't have a multimeter and an SPL meter to see what's really taking place.

 

Back to the OT, none of the above levels take into account average energy. Peaks are supposed to peaks. Not a sonic onslaught through until the end of the credits.

 

There is no more a glaring example of this soundtrack debauchery than in the BR release of Top Gun. Both full-surround codecs are available to A/B. For those that have been around aircraft, one option will sound "real" at reference level and the other will sound like the subwoofer and center channel are about to blow a gasket and spew molten lava.

[Youthman]

If you are into high fidelity, the answer is simple: You listen at the level of the actual performance. Less or more is not high fidelity by definition.

Dave

I'm Not sure that high fidelity has to = high volume. With that definition, anyone listening to something at 80db would not be considered high fidelity. I would venture there are a lot of high fidelity guys that listen to music at 75db.

Likewise, the actual performance in an action movie is at even higher levels than the final mix. That's why the crew wear ear plugs on the set.

All I know is that 110-115db sustained listening levels was too loud for me and I've always liked it loud.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Quiet, it does seem that the HD audio blurays seem much louder than what I remember standard Dolby Digital and DTS to be.

In the THX / Dolby days "reference" used to mean something. A standard by which to select speaker and amplifier gear based upon room sizes.

 

Now it doesn't really matter. Where Home Theater is concerned, we can calibrate all we want, but the proof is in the pudding (and all over the web). Almost everyone with good hearing has been throttling their systems back on movie night (myself included) because average mix levels are just too damn hot.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Quiet_Hollow

[The History Kid]

I've grown up with my listening habits just a little bit since these chronic ear infections of mine started.  Used to be, I'd really jam out on the headphones...probably at unsafe levels.  I now have ringing in the ears because of it, but alas...I was a dumb kid.  Since then, I've kept my volume levels moderate.  At most I'll have my amp at -27.5 dB, -37.5 dB with headphones.  (Before I used to go up to -10 dB with the headphones...stupid stupid kid...)

[Quiet_Hollow]

I've always been confused at the whole "Reference Level" concept.

 It's all about using the decibel to relate one unit value to another (signal strength, power, voltage, SPL) in order to calculate or prove the performance of your gear along any point you have control over.

 

The reference sound pressure level was instituted as a control standard for cinemas to ensure playback quality (establish a satisfactory, yet safe maximum for the patrons, and thusly minimums for equipment outlay required by the owner/operators).

 

This is where it all starts with digital source material. The scale within a scale:

 

[Chris A]

I wanted to pose a question about volume to the community. How loud do you typically watch a movie? My receiver was set at -25db. Most dialogue and non-action sequences were around 85db.

Your SPL meter is the only device that really counts--not the attenuation of your preamp electrical gain to your power amplifiers--which can be integrated with your preamp if you own a receiver instead of separate preamp/processor.

 

I do not set the dialogue at 85 dB(A): I set it at a lower level that is probably ~75-80 dB(A).  I have found that some soundtracks are still too dynamic in terms of their sound effects relative to dialogue--especially  "comic books brought to the screen" movies which are annoyingly loud during the high-SPL passages. 

 

You are aware that human hearing isn't "flat"...in fact it's far from it.  The eardrum sits at the end of a closed tube that is tuned to 2-4 kHz (depending on the person).  Below you will find the famous "Fletcher-Munson curves" for human hearing that show that not all loudness is the same, in fact, extremely low frequencies have to be quite loud (in terms of SPL) to hear at all due to the "tuned tube" effect of the eardrum and ear canal.  Here you see curves of equal perceived loudness vs. frequency:

 

                  Fletcher-Munson curves for human hearing

 

This is why another scale is used to measure perceived loudness: the phon scale. When talking about perceived loudness, you should actually be using phons, found using the F-M curves in the figure.

 

Chris

Edited December 27, 2014 by Chris A

[JJkizak]

I have been casual listening to the local HD FM station at -25 on the amp dial which measures out to an average of 80 db on the Shack meter. I have cranked things up to -15 on the amp setting which is around 95db on the Shack meter while watching music videos. 

JJK