Schu Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Man... :popcorn: time for sure. even though most of this stuff has been said before... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolz Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 The discussion makes the forum interesting, entertaining and educational as always. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Al. I'm glad you are still around. I love your ESN networks. I'm currently building some cornscalas with Bob's cnc baffle and woofer, Daves midhorn and tweet, and your ESN700s and ESN5800s. Everybody has different ears with different likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Well, maybe a 10 dB swing is pretty "GD good" for your stuff... Lee I see a within 9dB variation in the ALK ESN response. There also seems to be some sort of ripple in the response(?). Perhaps you can comment on how these "anomalies" sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 You asked for this. No proxy.. I am getting mad as hell at what I am hearing on this thread. First off, yes, I was banned from this forum earlier for telling it like it is about a certain vendor who stole my Universal design and is now building knock-off versions saying "change one part and the design is no longer yours". This was the FIRST competitor I foolishly trained. It may be of interest to know that Dean was right there with me even to the point of urging me to PATENT the swamping resistor idea and actually start legal action against him. I knew at that time I had seen the idea used by others. This was long after I had incorporated it into all my networks. I had simply REinvented it. It was Bob Crites (I think) who identified it as a JBL idea. I actually came to the idea independently after talking to my late friend and mentor Max Potter about if shunt resistors do or do not reduce efficiency. They do NOT! It was Max who was the spark for the idea, NOT DJK! AS to the ban: I was NEVER reinstated nor did I ever ask to be. I was "grandfathered" back in when the forum software was upgraded but I swore I would never post again even though I could. I do NOT CARE if I am banned again. I DO care that this thread not be locked. I figured if I limit myself only to posting emoticons and post only through a proxy who will monitor my lack of tact, the chances of this happening again would be eliminated. Amy: if you find my comments out of line, or a person attack, BAND ME AGAIN, but do not lock this thread! Exposing the truth about the poor filter designs that are accepted as gospel throughout the loudspeaker industry is my mission. The crap that passes for crossover networks, include the THING Acoustic Research cooked up for the long dead "LST" speaker would be laughed at by any serious filter designer. It breaks every rule in the book! I have been designing multiplexers (which a crossover is) from audio to 2000 MEGA Hz for nearly 40 years. I know L-C filters! They are my speciality. Letting a loudspeaker designer design a crossover is like allowing the same engineer who designed the engine in your car do the seats and style the body! You won't like the results! NOW: for the SECOND competitor I foolishly trained, Dean Wescott! I spent countless hours on the telephone with him trying to explain the simplest concepts as well as basic filter design and transformer theory. I nearly GAVE HIM a copy of my filter design package (PCFILT) to use for analysis and research. What a mistake that would have been! I also spent time with him unravelling the techno-double-talk often used by a prominent engineer to snow others when he gets pinned down on something, or got something wrong. Then there is my "Universal" network. I gave Dean an opportunity to build my first network design, the Universal, in its high-priced form because I no longer wanted to build it. I did not have to do that and should not have! He bubbled over telling me what an honer it would be to build them! At that time I explained why I no longer wanted to build it. My conscience was bothering me. With the introduction of the "AP" and Extreme-slope" series networks, it had become my "entry level" design. It lacked a tweeter shelving adjustment and no longer warranted the high cost parts. The Universal was initially modelled after the Klipsch "AA" network. It didn't need a tweeter attenuator because its "constant K" tweeter filter was so lossy! How could I justify adding a tweeter attenuator after all this time? Then there was the high cost of fancy parts like Hovland Musicaps. Having evolved into an entry level design it needed to be scaled back, not expand to even higher cost parts as Dean finally did. Not only did I give him the license to build them, I completely revamped the layout and built the first set FOR HIM taking pictures of the procedure, step by step, to show him how it was to be done! I would not accept splicing parts tougher and hanging them in mid-air like he always does. We busted our collective buts to trying to balance his prices with mine. We tried to make this work! The bottom line here is that nobody was at fault. It was a joint venture that SIMPLY FAILED! At that time I was offering the scaled down Universal as the CornScallWall with a 600 Hz crossover. It was not interned for the Klipschorn. That was to be Dean's product. Only when Dean decided to give up and blame me for the failure did I start making the 400 Hz version and changed the name to the "CSW Universal economy". I have since built 77 sets to only a few of the high-priced version built by Dean. Then there is his "super X", alias the "ALK Junior", alias the "Super AA", which I designed and GAVE HIM. It has the autotransformer and swamping resistor at the termination end just like my Universal network. It is, IN FACT, my Universal with one less inductor and computer optimized to compensate and maintain nearly constant impedance. Dean, the next time you build one of these at your exorbitant price, remember who designed it and gave it to you for free and why. One of the things I try to do is not introduce fads an sucker people into swallowing foolish things like battery biased capacitors. If Dean was so keen on offering a biased capacitor network, it could be done WITHOUT A BATTERY! I challenge him to figure out how to do that! Now, there is that HUGE wax dipped autotransformer that he is dazzling his customer with. All it does is run his cost and the customers price up. The original 3619 I used for years is already oversized. It will handle 50W of power all day and has a DCR of about 0.35 Ohms. I have one here that has had half the outer covering chewed off my a rat. It still works fine! BTW: I am nearly 69 years old and my hands are beginning to shake. I can hardly use a glue gun. Dean was being groomed to totally take over my entire product line when I retired. I will never train another person to become a competitor. Now I will train only an assembler when I retire. My designs will be burred with me when I go! Another VERY important point.. The entire audio industry is built on what I call "audio placebos". Our only source of reality is the "computer model" created inside our brain to understand reality. The fact is, a person will hear what he expects to hear, NOT reality. This means good science requires instrument measurement and evaluation of every stage of any complex system scientifically, including a loudspeaker. To measure only the acoustic output and not examine the crossover as a separate entity and as a single cog in the works is not "what engineers do"! Anyone who depends solely on his ears to eventuate a speaker is kidding himself. This also goes for people who claim they can hear the difference between brands of capacitors. It's TOTAL B.S.! Even if you could, the difference is trivial compared to the long list of cumulative boners found in poorly designed filters. If this were not true the point would not be so controversial. Anyone who thinks the AK-3 sounds better than any of my networks either has it set up wrong or does not know what he is listening to! The AK-3 also has an extreme-slope tweeter filter. It has been erroneously called an "Elliptic filter". It, like all the poor designs I see, was simply grafted in! My Universal is not recommend to replace the AK, AK-2 or AK-3, only the AA. The correct replacement for the AK-3 is my AP12-AK3 and ES5800. It will walk all over the Universal or the AK-3 and does not even require the installer to open the Klipschorn woofer hatch! In conclusion, anyone here who decides to call me arrogant may do so. I believe there is a place for arrogance, IF YOU'RE RIGHT. Was PWK arrogant? YES, and he had good reason to be! If this gets me banned again, nobody will question why I need a proxy! If, after all this crap, you might like to see the acoustic output of a speaker using a correctly designed network with transformers and a swamping resistors at the termination end of the filters, look here: http://www.alkeng.com/shelving.jpg It's the ES500 + ES5800. Al K. No one cares. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) With apologies to our porcine pets, adding a swamping resistor to John’s network would be like putting lipstick on a pig! Is using low-Q, lossy inductors instead of high-Q, low-loss inductors wound with Litz wire an example of “one way to do something well”? I seem to be in the company of the best suppliers in the world. I suspect if Litz wire made any difference at all, Tannoy or KEF would use it. Tannoy, KEF, Thiel, JBL, B&W are all wrong... Edited October 19, 2015 by John Warren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) For the others, note the Thiel network and the use of both low and high dollar caps. Now these are not seen by the customer. The Electrocube cap is $$$. Edited October 19, 2015 by John Warren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I don't care for the ESN designs. The sound is dry, two-dimensional, and the transients are practically non-existent. In small rooms, you can hear the sound moving between the drivers, which has to be one of the most unnatural phenomena I've ever experienced from a loudspeaker. This fatal flaw can be teased from the response plot above. The midrange is about 5dB down from the shelf at 500Hz and nearly 25dB down at 400Hz. If this network is expected to operate with a Klipschorn folded unit I can't see it. It might suit for one of the small systems and perhaps its for a LaScala or Belle(?). These types of networks have their place. Genelec uses them but does so using active networks and they're spectacular. But with Klipsch drivers.... Edited October 19, 2015 by John Warren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Al, Glad to see you back. I am still using the ES500 / ES5800 networks (that you originally designed for my MWM setup, and helped me with) and that I pulled from that setup long ago (to go "active"), and now use on a set of DBBs (dual K-33).....With K402 and 510 horns each with 2" drivers. Excellent still after many years of use. In fact, because of the flexibility built into the ALK designs (and an all important feature......LEAVING THE EQ OUTSIDE THE NETWORK), I can't even count how many different speaker combinations of different horns and drivers I have been able to try and enjoy over the years with those same networks. Honestly some of the very best money in audio I ever spent. I would also comment that I have used many of the different ALK designs over the years and in one case replaced a pair of AK-3s in a 1996 pair of Khorns I owned at the time with ES400 / ES5800 ESNs. I used them with a Peach tube preamp and VRD tube amplifiers. The AK-3s were simply inferior in every way by comparison. They were NO comparison. The speakers were given new life with the addition of those ESNs, and I enjoyed them for several years. Glad to see you still have a passion for this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I DO care that this thread not be locked. I figured if I limit myself only to posting emoticons and post only through a proxy who will monitor my lack of tact, the chances of this happening again would be eliminated. Amy: if you find my comments out of line, or a person attack, BAND ME AGAIN, but do not lock this thread! Al, I realize you've been out of the loop for some time. Welcome back. Amy left Klipsch and is on the ground floor of a start up company. She still has moderator status but is pretty much inactive here. This thread will stay open and unlocked as long as there are no personal attacks. Differences of opinion are welcome and make for good reading. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spezjag Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Differences of opinion are welcome and make for good reading. Bravo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I just think there has to be some overlap between the drivers to get a cohesive sound. Hearing three distinct sources of sound is distracting as hell. The extreme slope concept seems to work well for those who have large rooms and listen at live or high power levels. I'm just not an advocate of a cookie cutter approach with this stuff, and the "good, better, best" model just doesn't work. You have to know something about the room, setup, and how a person listens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Al, I would also comment that I have used many of the different ALK designs over the years and in one case replaced a pair of AK-3s in a 1996 pair of Khorns I owned at the time with ES400 / ES5800 ESNs. I used them with a Peach tube preamp and VRD tube amplifiers. The AK-3s were simply inferior in every way by comparison. They were NO comparison. The speakers were given new life with the addition of those ESNs, and I enjoyed them for several years . Three comments: (1) I was commenting on the ALK universal vs AK-3 and contrary to what Al says now it was offered as a replacement option at the time. (2) I've heard the ALK ESN on Klipshorns and agree it is a better network than the universal. (3) Mark was your AK-3 networks in good operating condition(ie:caps and monster wire not corroded green)..? IMHO while the ALK-ESN and the AK-3 have a different sound neither was superior than the other but I'm sure individuals would eventually find a preference.Just my opinion but there are much better places to spend the $$$$ than the ALK ESN cost elsewhere in the reproduction chain. By the way I was using very good quality Tube Equipment like you and contrary to Al's comment the networks were installed correctly(Good Grief)..!!!! Miketn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Mike, I made my comments obviously because I saw your earlier comment and had an opposite experience. I did have a pair of properly operating AK-3s with good monster cable wiring which was Klipsch factory installed at that time. I also used different and more powerful tube equipment than you were using.............and of course you were using the universal networks. I never did like the AK-3s........and at the time I also had a nice pair of Lascalas with AL-3s. Didn't like those either and wound up with ALK Jrs. that I still prefer to this day over every other network I ever heard in a lascala. I also agree with both you and Dean that other things matter as well. Of course. For me...........the room has never changed.........same room for last 11 years. I still listen at decent levels and agree the ESNs are not for those who want to listen at very low levels. You get big rewards once you turn them up a little. But I can tell you the music in church yesterday was louder than I listen at home. So I am not splitting ear drums either. The phenomenon of the "music jumping back and forth between drivers".............I just don't hear that in my setups. Might have something to do with the choice of music and crossover points. Maybe listening levels as well. Don't know, don't have that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Mike, Here is a picture of the ESNs I'm referencing. These were done in 12/2006. I built these myself and had around $1500 in just parts (due to the caps). Not cheap for 2006. ALK built the ES5800s and I recapped them before I ever used them. The mid and tweeter sections are all hand matched pairs of Auricaps. The rest of the parts are same as ALK always uses. I can remember the curves were one right on top of the other. Dead nuts identical. They sounded incredible with Peach and VRDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Dean,I am getting quite sick of your continuous knit picking. The simple fact is that I busted my butt helping you become a competitor. Now that you failed miserably at making a high priced version of a network that had evolved into an entry level network, I'm the bad guy! ENOUGH!Like I told the first competitor I trained, go market anything you like. Let's see where the markets take us. You can no longer claim your products are "restorations" because they are not as PWK made them. They are not "upgrades" because they are his same designs with parts other then he used. So what are they? They are the same old networks that have been used for years with a pretty paint job and overpriced parts like that huge transformer that does nothing by raise the price. The only network you have to offer that is unique is the "super X" that I gave you. Since I can't stop you from build it, it's up to your conscience and the market place.Warren,While on the subject of knit picking; the segment of my plot that you posted is of the ES500 designed for the Belle Klipsch or La Scala. It is intended to be 6 dB down at 500 Hz. It's the ES400 that was designed for the Klipschorn! I used the ES500 for all the Shelving testing simply because it is the last network I built. It was available. Now, that set is boxed up and read to ship to the U.K.Al K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 ENOUGH! I agree. Maybe the PM function would be best for your back and forth. I'm not singling out you or Dean, but as you previously stated, there's a lot of good reading in this thread and I believe everyone would like to keep the thread open, active and unlocked. Going after each other is not conducive to thread life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 ENOUGH! I agree. Maybe the PM function would be best for your back and forth. I'm not singling out you or Dean, but as you previously stated, there's a lot of good reading in this thread and I believe everyone would like to keep the thread open, active and unlocked. Going after each other is not conducive to thread life. Probably not conducive to the blood pressure numbers of some of the participant's either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Mike, Here is a picture of the ESNs I'm referencing. These were done in 12/2006. I built these myself and had around $1500 in just parts (due to the caps). Not cheap for 2006. ALK built the ES5800s and I recapped them before I ever used them. The mid and tweeter sections are all hand matched pairs of Auricaps. The rest of the parts are same as ALK always uses. I can remember the curves were one right on top of the other. Dead nuts identical. They sounded incredible with Peach and VRDs. I heard this setup and just about the best I've heard on Khorns. I certainly don't have a compilation in memory of the different PWK networks so I won't make that claim. A heard a friends Khorns in north Georgia with pricey caps in Some Universals that sounded good too. More airy mids. The bass was incredible in that room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 All I can say with respect to XO's I've owned built by Klipsch (originals), Bob Crites (A/4500's) and most recently DeanG (AA's): - All make excellent sounding XO's. It is only because I'm hearing the Klipsch original XO's some 25 to 30 years I can't know how the originals sounded new. I have not purchased any ALK designed and produced XO's because of my listening habits today (i.e. low power tube amps) but his reputation for making excellent sounding XO's is very well established. We Klipsch heritage speaker owner's are extremely fortunate to have a great group of diverse XO maker's still providing products and services today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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