jwc Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 """We Klipsch heritage speaker owner's are extremely fortunate to have a great group of diverse XO maker's still providing products and services today.""" Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I haven't resorted to personal attacks and I'm allowed to have my opinions. The only person going off the rails here is Al. It has always been an unspoken rule that you don't enter another vendor's thread unless you have something positive to contribute. The proxy posts and idiotic emoticons were clearly an attempt to pollute John's thread. In defense of my builds. 1) PWK began with paper in oil capacitors. Later he used Mylar in oil. He spec'd out "oil filled capacitors", and I have this in his own handwriting. I use paper in oil and the wax paper Jupiters to retain the original sonic signature. 2) In my LONG conversations with Mark Cooper of Universal Transformer, I learned that PWK specified wax, because only wax has the viscosity to fully permeate the windings. PWK also wanted the lowest DCR possible on both the autotransformer and low pass coils. They're nice units, and I'm not exactly robbing people blind on them. So, I don't see how you can get any closer to the original builds than what I'm doing. The SuperX was my idea. I had it built and in use in my own system before I sent you the schematic. You tweaked the tweeter circuit and then claimed it as your own. Hey, that's the way I remember it -- am I missing something? I changed those values back years ago after deciding to compare and found that the original values sounded better. My conscience is clear. Gentle Slopes and the next generation autotransformer -- any seed planting on my part for any of that? No. The Universal may or may not have survived. Your insistence on going after you know who's jugular with that latest build sure didn't help any. Hey, let's straddle one of the greatest loudspeakers ever built with THAT? All capacitors sound the same? Tell that to Mark1101 and the hundreds of other customers. So, everyone is deaf, including the guy who openly claims "to have a tin ear". I am 100% done here. Edited October 19, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Mike, Here is a picture of the ESNs I'm referencing. These were done in 12/2006. I built these myself and had around $1500 in just parts (due to the caps). Not cheap for 2006. ALK built the ES5800s and I recapped them before I ever used them. The mid and tweeter sections are all hand matched pairs of Auricaps. The rest of the parts are same as ALK always uses. Very "Impressive" work my friend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I just think there has to be some overlap between the drivers to get a cohesive sound. Hearing three distinct sources of sound is distracting as hell. The extreme slope concept seems to work well for those who have large rooms and listen at live or high power levels. I'm just not an advocate of a cookie cutter approach with this stuff, and the "good, better, best" model just doesn't work. You have to know something about the room, setup, and how a person listens. I agree that their is a possibility that as one uses steeper crossover slopes there is potential that the sound can appear to shift between drivers covering that frequency region. Driver's/Horns physical location relative to each other could become an issue exasperating this effect. That being said I do often prefer steep slope crossovers when the loudspeaker system's design allows for it. When I heard the ALK ESN networks in the Klipschorns of a friend's with stock drivers/horns I thought they sounded very good and at the time I didn't notice a shifting of source locations but that doesn't mean over time certain recordings might have exposed that possibility. I will add that at that time my recollection is that he and I both thought that yes they sounded some different from the stock network (AK-3 I believe) but not night and day nor necessarily better just again different. At the same time we were listening to the new ALK ESN networks I pointed out to my friend that I could hear a very obvious room mode issues and if memory serves me right I believe it was worst around 90Hz region so I installed a Digital EQ and compensated for the problem area and this resulted in a truly Night and Day listening result. We later installed an analog EQ unit he owned that fortunately had a filter in the region he needed compensation for that also alleviated the exaggerated room modal issue. My Point..? That in this friends unique listening room/situation $$$$ spent would have resulted in much more bang for the buck relative to what difference there was in these networks if he had instead dealt with the room issues. And before anyone begins to think I'm against these "network options" I'm not..! They can and do sound different and we all like to pursue what we perceive as improvements any where we can in our systems but way to often just like in my friends case he was ignoring the "Audio Elephant" ie: room modal issues while swatting (ie:spending $$$$) at an "Audio Fly" in comparison. Yea I know...... Flys can bug the "H*ll" out of a person/system..... but.... an Elephant can "Kill" a person/system. miketn Edited October 19, 2015 by mikebse2a3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I should add sorry John for starting to sidetrack on your thread. miketn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Dean, You wrote: "It has always been an unspoken rule that you don't enter another vendor's thread unless you have something positive to contribute. The proxy posts and idiotic emoticons were clearly an attempt to pollute John's thread." So, if a competitor to Klipsch Group, Inc. is hawking a questionable "upgrade" to one of their premier products, the Klipschorn, we as good forum members should either falsely praise the product with huzzahs or remain silent. Not gonna happen. Some forum members have made significant upgrades all across the Klipsch product spectrum. Dave Harris in particular has developed well over a dozen improvements, the most notable (at least to me) being the Eliptrac 400, a huge improvement over the K-400 horn. My first post to John was simply to question why two frequency response graphs he posted showed a 6-7 dB droop between 2 kHz & 4 kHz. His reply was, "But is [sic] sounds pretty damn good and no dulling as you're inferring." Boy, if I'm a potential customer for one of his (taking a big breath here) "Top section baffle insert designed to accommodate three driver assemblies with autoformer based crossover network", whew, I'd want more than a verbal assurance that the "anomaly" is not going to detract from my listening enjoyment. As an aside, John can call his network whatever strikes his fancy; but to say it's a transformer based crossover network is like a loudspeaker manufacturer saying their product is a woofer-based loudspeaker---it makes no sense. The autoformer, capacitors and inductors all work together as an ensemble to divide the frequency spectrum between the three drivers. No one component should be singled out like it's a feature. The probable reason PWK specified the capacitors the way he did was not because they sounded better than polypropylene or other types of film capacitors--he chose what was available at the time that had the necessary value and voltage breakdown. Film capacitors with those specifications were probably not in production "back in the day"; or, if they were, they were prohibitively expensive. But I'm only guessing. You wrote: "I use paper in oil and the wax paper Jupiters to retain the original sonic signature.... So, I don't see how you can get any closer to the original builds than what I'm doing." There are vintage car guys and gals who would never replace the drum brakes on their vintage Mustang with safer aftermarket disc brakes because they also want to be closer to the original build. They may also be closer to their maker when they have to make a high speed panic stop!! You wrote: "I don't care for the ESN designs. The sound is dry, two-dimensional, and the transients are practically non-existent. In small rooms, you can hear the sound moving between the drivers, which has to be one of the most unnatural phenomena I've ever experienced from a loudspeaker. Is this what we should expect from superior network design?" PROXY ALERT!!! DON'T READ BEYOND THIS LINE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT AL WROTE IN RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE STATEMENT I asked Al when you had an opportunity to listen to his Extreme Slope network. Here is his answer: "Dean's experience with ES networks was when I loaned him a set of ES400 + ES5800 which he stuck in his Klipschorns up in his attic loft. The room was too small even for Klipschorns, let alone extreme-slope networks! Of course the sound jumped around between drivers; he was sitting too close to them because of the size of the room! He simply was stuck with a low and unrealistic level which is a justification for driver overlap and the "singing in the shower" artificial ambiance it gives you." You wrote: "I am 100% done here." Dean, as you wrote, "I'm allowed to have my opinions." Hey, the more you reply the more you reveal--so keep it up!! Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Just noise. Your analogies are poor and not applicable to this situation. You can find a picture of my room and setup in the gallery on my website. I built-in some false corners into my Klipschorns and swung them around. My chair was 13 feet from the motororboards. They were outfitted with the Trachorn, Beyma, and JBL 2470s. What should have worked just fine, didn't. So now we have a clear admission that a room can be too small? Funny. Did you miss the part about me being done with this? Yeesh, go away already. Edited October 20, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Well, this is becoming comical, and, quite tiring..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?" Ah, yes, the level headed Canadian speaks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) A heard a friends Khorns in north Georgia with pricey caps in Some Universals that sounded good too. More airy mids. The bass was incredible in that room. Hey jc Please know I believe and respect what you are saying and just trying to understand people's reference points so just to clarify for me are you saying you compared these pricy cap universals to stock networks in the same room at the same time and heard "More airy mids" ? The fact that you report the "The bass was incredible in that room" indicates the acoustics in this room might have been much better than other rooms you've heard Khorns in. The reason I say this is my experience has been that when stock Khorns have been installed in rooms with very good acoustics they have shown exceptional mids and highs with incredible bass detail and clarity because the room's acoustics aren't muddying things up.. I believe very few people have experienced Khorns at their full potential because of compromised setups and room acoustics. miketn Edited October 20, 2015 by mikebse2a3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Well, this is becoming comical, and, quite tiring..... BEWARE, this could mark the beginning of a locked thread! Al K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Well, this is becoming comical, and, quite tiring..... BEWARE, this could mark the beginning of a locked thread! Al K. Lots of good technical stuff has been posted for non-technical types like me. Between 'the lines' in some cases. I'd hate to see this thread get locked down as I doubt the last word on this has been written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 It would be nice to see the brains get over themselves and actually have a technical discussion without all of the off-forum drama bleeding in.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Well, this is becoming comical, and, quite tiring..... Some of it yes but there is some good "poop" being posted also..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Yea Mike. That room with the universals had a low ceiling....basement....k horns on a short wall in a long room. Very good false walls/corners built onto the khorns. Killer bass that I attribute to the room. The airy mids maybe from the network...not sure. Great system. The detail and seperation more noted on the ESN system. To my liking....some may not. All other times I've heard khorns...I'm assuming Klipsch factory. ...... I also apologize to JW but his network originality/design led into an informative discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Well, this is becoming comical, and, quite tiring..... Some of it yes but there is some good "poop" being posted also..! Yes, the poop on topic is quite good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 20, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 20, 2015 Guys, guys, guys. Wow, lots of interesting stuff here. It is interesting to see the different approaches to the same problem. I guess it is all about perspective, the technical background that one comes from that carries forward into the final product. Also interesting to see the passion behind the product/disign. Most interesting is how the memory of some seem to fade coupled with attempts at revisionist history. The internet is a very unforgiving medium. Ask anyone caught, literally, with their pants down on YouTube or Twitter. It is forever, it doesn't go away. Everything that is posted is pretty much forever unless, and until, the content owner decides to delete the content. Here is an example from Al's current website. It might aid some in understanding how he thinks and his logic. Ifi you can understand the logic in this, then I think it will help those who may not understand the logic in some of his posts: ** A word about on-line audio forums **I have concluded that I will never participate in any of the on-line forums ever again. Vendors such as myself are treated like dirt by the moderators (unless you pay to sponsor them) as well as forum members who assume their only motive is to peddle their stuff! I don't need forums to promote my stuff! I have intentionally had myself banned from these forums so that I will never again be tempted to log on to them: The Klipsch company forum. AudioAficionado.org <== This forum assumes new members are dirt until they prove otherwise! AudioKarma.org <== These moderators are extremely narrow-minded! The advice and information offered in any of these forms is mostly Bull$hit by amateurs who know little or nothing about what they are saying. Any attempt by competent people to call out snake-oil products is met with resistance. This causes those who actually know (usually vendors) to say nothing. The moderators will not point out the snake-oil leaving the entire forum as a exercise in the blind leading the blind! So to my blind brethren on this forum, I guess you should be prepared to see the light. DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 He nailed Audio Karma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Yea Mike. That room with the universals had a low ceiling....basement....k horns on a short wall in a long room. Very good false walls/corners built onto the khorns. Killer bass that I attribute to the room. The airy mids maybe from the network...not sure. Great system. The detail and seperation more noted on the ESN system. To my liking....some may not. All other times I've heard khorns...I'm assuming Klipsch factory. : ...... I also apologize to JW but his network originality/design led into an informative discussion. Too many factors there for me to say that the nets were responsible for listening to the best Khorns I ever heard. Closed backs, wooden trax mid horns with basketball sized Altec drivers, Bi-radial tweets. MC275's..... Must think that I would need some sort of A/B to assess the boards. The room was great with hard corners but I like a little more separation smile tc Edited October 20, 2015 by IB Slammin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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