New hardware

[Jim Naseum]

The big take away to me is that nobody has any respect or love for Klipsch corporation crossovers

You couldn't be more wrong. This forum and the tweekaholics that frequent here are a mere fraction of Klipsch owners and do not represent the average Klipsch owner. This is like saying that whoever designed the small block Chevrolet had no idea what he was doing as there are so many people modifying them.

What crossovers do you run in your speakers?

Well, of course I was referring to forum folk, not the general public! I meant HERE.

I have only used stock crossovers and drivers. My first foray (chorus) was too shabby, too old and rough, so I unloaded them a couple weeks ago, and now searching for the next step up, and THAT is why all this replacement of parts is interesting to me. I have to consider these upgrade costs not just the purchase price. Some of these crossovers cost 5X what I paid for the speakers!!! Not to mention me tweeters, mid and horns. Like I said, this is a big learning exp.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Edited October 23, 2015 by jo56steph74

[jwc]

There is no Dig.  It is a compliment and "case-in-point" as it is obvious you have respect for Klipsch.  

 

You are no fool and you aren't living with 4 sets of speakers with 3 sets of them dripping with snake oil!!!!!!

[CECAA850]

There is no Dig.

 

My apologies.

[Jim Naseum]

"The big take away to me is that nobody has any respect or love for Klipsch corporation crossovers, whether they were designed by the big man himself..."

Whoa there, I do.

http://www.aletheiaaudio.com

https://m.facebook.com/AletheiaAudio

PWK put frequency response fourth on his list of things that matter, which is good, because compression drivers on horns aren't always pretty in that regard, but they still sound good, right? The original networks were based on a rather simple idea -- find some drivers which are fairly linear, and just string them together. The Type A has four parts. Both the original filters as well as the parts that were used were considered rather lossy by today's standards. I build the way I do because after building or trying every different way possible, I found out that my personal preference was for the old filters using primarily paper in oil capacitors.

We will now hear how terrible the old crossovers are and how the parts are even worse. I'll respond to that now and just say that if another way of building sounded better, I'd be using it.

You can rebuild with modern metalized or film type polypropylenes, but then you have to rebalance things, but even after you're done, it doesn't sound anything like the original vintage builds. However, it IS the most cost effective way of doing it.

I've owned highly modified Klipschorns as well as Jubilees, but because of stressed financials, now listen to stock LaScalas. I use the Type AA crossover, and saved for the capacitors I wanted.

Bigger drivers and horns have their place, but that doesn't mean you have to complicate the filter.

Enter John's solution. You can still keep it relatively simple, build with films, and offer some slight adjustments in attenuation to balance the drivers out to account for personal taste.

Sorry about the self-promotion John, but the thread has gone way off it's original mark and I couldn't let that comment go.

Mr. Dean Ex cranky solder man,

On the new $12,000 Khorns does the company use the kind of caps you are using as replacement? Is the crossover a new design? I don't see any information about it. If there are all these guys saying, "this is a better way for a crossover," is the better way being put into the new products? My intuition says the company would know better than some guys in a garage ( no offense intended).

I just wonder if this crossover stuff is mere niggling, like $10000 wires, or if it is fundamental design change? If the latter, how can they be better than the company???

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[CECAA850]

If the latter, how can they be better than the company???

 

I would suggest actually purchasing a pair of speakers, experiment and let your ears decide.  Sometimes it's better to live in the actual as opposed to the theoretical world.

[jimjimbo]

 

If the latter, how can they be better than the company???

 

I would suggest actually purchasing a pair of speakers, experiment and let your ears decide.  Sometimes it's better to live in the actual as opposed to the theoretical world.

 

Whoa Carl, take a Midol.

[CECAA850]

Whoa Carl, take a Midol.

 

How long have you been waiting to use that

[jimjimbo]

 

Whoa Carl, take a Midol.

 

How long have you been waiting to use that

 

1 day, didn't take long....

[mark1101]

For me it's about the information........and the proof of performance.  The "I know exactly what I am getting".  That means a lot to me.

 

I can get past the rudeness.

 

There is rarely any solid information like this brought forward from experts on this forum anymore.

 

So I am enjoying this thread.

 

I'd rather spend my time reading posts written by people that know what they are talking about........and that I know I can trust.

[Arkytype]

BTW:  The Smith chart is used by microwave engineers because the outer circle represents 360 degrees down a transmission line.

 

John, Dean, et al, 

 

I wouldn’t be so hard on Al for using “microwave engineers” techniques for designing his filters. Would you be equally hard on PWK if he had used similar techniques? Well, in fact, he did!

 

Check out Volume 7 No. 1 (January 4, 1966) issue of The Dope From Hope where PWK acknowledges learning his “Transmission Lines and Wave Filters” from Dr. Frederick Terman in 1933. At that time, transmission lines and wave filter applications dealt almost exclusively with radio engineering. The term "audio engineering" wasn't in the lexicon of the time.

 

Who’s Terman? One of the giants in early RF design and product development. Note that “RF” stands for radio frequencies, not audio frequencies. His books include: Fundamentals of Radio, Radio Engineers’ Handbook, Radio Engineering . Notice the word “radio” in those titles; Terman taught RF-based engineering and the wave filter topologies developed in the early days of radio.

 

While Stephen Butterworth’s seminal paper, On the Theory of Filter Amplifiers was published in 1930, the paper was all but ignored for years.   

 

As PWK wrote in the above cited Dope From Hope, “Practical applications of wave filters to loudspeakers has been studied for over 30 years.” In the Volume 11, No. 2 Dope From Hope, Note that PWK is still tinkering with “constant-k” filter topology developed for radio engineering.

 

The preceding was not in any way to denigrate the accomplishments of PWK. It was only to point out that the use of crossover networks for audio frequencies is a direct evolution from filter theory developed for radio and transmission lines.  

 

I’m sure the “family tree” of passive filter design has many branches and it would be an interesting exercise to see how topologies such as Butterworth, Bessel, m-derived, constant-k, Cauer, Chebyshev, etc. developed.  

  

Lee

[Deang]

I'm aware of those things. Actually, Constant-K filters are a type of filter derived using the Image Parameter Method.

Filters are filters, there are just different types using different methods - I don't know what your point is. I thought John was just speaking in the context of the Smith Chart.

Roy told me that PK was doing a lot of m-derived stuff late in his life, which I believe is steep slope in nature.

I actually saw the filter that PK used in the Jubilee. I pulled it out of the bass bin myself when a group of us were visiting Mrs. Valerie. There wasn't wasn't much to it.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Deang

[jwc]

I was there with you as we were trying to get it to work.  No way it was a steep slope filter.  2nd order at best.  Wasn't loaded with notch filters either.

[jwc]

Maybe next April.....Hope....Maybe the farmhouse.  Stock classic la scala or Khorn.  Filter competition.  Like old times.  Bring your best.

[CECAA850]

Stock classic la scala or Khorn. Filter competition.

 

That would be great.

[JL Sargent]

I would help build a mud wrestling pit!

[Deang]

I was there with you as we were trying to get it to work. No way it was a steep slope filter. 2nd order at best. Wasn't loaded with notch filters either.

1st order, 2nd order, 3rd order maybe. Right, no correction. Don't need it if you use a good enough driver. I just said Roy told me he was working with the math, not that he used it in the Jubilee. I honestly believe PK was a minimalist at heart.

We did get it to work, actually Doc and Colter did, I think it was a bad connection at one of the driver terminals. I wanted to sketch out that network real bad, but it just felt so wrong.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Deang

[mikebse2a3]

I heard the La Scala ll  and Klipschorn (2006) at the 2006 Pilgrimage

 

This was a very quick setup and the room was less than ideal which Mark Kauffman knew but they wanted us to hear them regardless.

 

Having owned La Scala for several years I was very impressed with the improvements I heard with the La Scala ll and on that day they were my favorite sound with the music heard that day..!

Very interesting to go back and read comments posted after the 2006 pilgrimage. 

 

The Klipschorns being in the corners of course were having a harder time with the room's acoustical issues which definitely kept them from reaching their full potential and I never once thought the AK-4 networks had anything to do with that and later confirmed this after installing the (AK-4/Driver update kit) from klipsch in my friends Khorns with a much better room setup which produced a sound that is very good in my opinion and was judged to be a real improvement by us both.

 

Just wanted to post my personal experiences/opinions while I appreciate and understand others might have had different ones.

 

 miketn

Edited October 23, 2015 by mikebse2a3

[jimjimbo]

I would help build a mud wrestling pit!

No need, there are several giant one's at Rodney's place already.....

[Coytee]

I actually saw the filter that PK used in the Jubilee. I pulled it out of the bass bin myself when a group of us were visiting Mrs. Valerie. There wasn't wasn't much to it.

 

Ya mean, this?

 

I slid my hand/camera in between all the gawkers and took a pot-luck shot

[Schu]

Yikes...