What is with the audiophile horn hate?

[cradeldorf]

 

Horns amplify because they are designed to amplify, build a horn with a different curve on every side and it will still be a horn but it will not amplify. They sound clearer because they prohibit the sound from going in other directions and creating reflections. It's just that simple. I have gone over to cone speakers myself because I don't need concert levels in my tiny living room. they're cool to impress your friends but after your done doing that... I mean who's gonna listen to a movie soundtrack at 100db's?

 

Why are you still hanging around a horn forum then? Everyone has different taste in music and I can understand liking the sound of cones better but why even responding to anything on this forum. This is a horn loving crowd. 

 

I enjoy my horns a low levels just as much as loud levels, to me they sound great at low levels. Different taste. 

 

If your beloved manufactures speakers are so great why is the technical / modifications section overloaded with people trying to improve their sound?

I moved on because I pushed them to the limits and they still didn't pass my qualifications test.  And I enjoy playing with them more than I do Listening to them. Unless you have Klipschorns, LaScala's or Belles 90% of you only have half horn loaded speakers anyways. And I don't have a hatred for horns I just moved away from them for the open baffle sound.

Edited October 22, 2015 by cradeldorf

[rebuy]

I can certainly understand your question.

In my case--my speakers at retail price is 400 per speaker.

Klipsch used caps in these speakers that probably cost them about 5 cents total.

That is the problem. 

I have other speakers from a major manufacturer that use much better

caps in their speakers that cost the same price.

Personally--I was shocked to see what Klipsch used in these speakers for the crossover.

My crosssovers are being upgraded right now with better caps.

You would think for the prices that you pay for these they would spend a few

extra dollars and put high quality parts in so customers would not need to "upgrade"

internal crossover parts.

Edited October 22, 2015 by rebuy

[Ceptorman]

It all boils down to the bottom line, and they have to make money. Maybe they spent more money than their competitors on better drivers, or better wood cabinets, or veneer,  engineers, warranty, marketing, advertising, packaging. How does Klipsch's $400 speaker compare to the competition's? Would the better, and more expensive XOs put the Klipsch speaker in a different price range? There are a lot of variables.

[Schu]

I reject the initial premise that audiophiles hate horns... I dont think that is a truism at all.

[DizRotus]

The term "audiophile" literally means someone who likes things audio. It does not necessarily mean an expert or authority on audio, although many draw that inference.

Many self-described audiophiles, perhaps more accurately described as audio-snobs, strongly dislike horns. Horns are frequently dismissively referred to as PA speakers.

One need only go to one of the few remaining audio salons to confirm the validity of the premise implied in the thread's subject. You'll probably find expensive direct radiators and some planers, but few, if any horns, and definitely nothing from Klipsch.

Just because someone enjoys something, whether beer, wine, audio, etc. does not make them an expert. Their opinions are no better than anyone else's. You cannot be wrong about your opinion.

Edited October 22, 2015 by DizRotus

[rebuy]

It all boils down to the bottom line, and they have to make money. Maybe they spent more money than their competitors on better drivers, or better wood cabinets, or veneer,  engineers, warranty, marketing, advertising, packaging. How does Klipsch's $400 speaker compare to the competition's? Would the better, and more expensive XOs put the Klipsch speaker in a different price range? There are a lot of variables.

 

Yes there are all things to consider but even to a dummy like me you know NOT to use cheap radial np caps in the crossover.

Geez- some caps are really not suitable for speakers because they're crap--and competitors of Klipsch make great speakers

for 400 dollars without using 5 cents worth of caps and still make a handsome profit.

 

Klipsch still makes loudspeakers for 400 dollars and I wonder if the netwoks look like this?

I bet if you paid that price you'd be disappointed at the Quality also---

Edited October 22, 2015 by rebuy

[Jim Naseum]

It all boils down to the bottom line, and they have to make money. Maybe they spent more money than their competitors on better drivers, or better wood cabinets, or veneer, engineers, warranty, marketing, advertising, packaging. How does Klipsch's $400 speaker compare to the competition's? Would the better, and more expensive XOs put the Klipsch speaker in a different price range? There are a lot of variables.

Yes there are all things to consider but even to a dummy like me you know NOT to use cheap radial np caps in the crossover.

Geez- some caps are really not suitable for speakers because they're crap--and competitors of Klipsch make great speakers

for 400 dollars without using 5 cents worth of caps and still make a handsome profit.

Klipsch still makes loudspeakers for 400 dollars and I wonder if the netwoks look like this?

I bet if you paid that price you'd be disappointed at the Quality also---

But...., the horn speaker is so dynamic and distortion free that the crossover parts are not important. This is obvious. If you already have perfect dynamics and no distortion what would be the point of spending excess money on crossover?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[Grizzog]

I reject the initial premise that audiophiles hate horns... I dont think that is a truism at all.

I have been to quite a number of "high end" shops, and have yet to see horns. The mere mention of horns makes some turn their noses up. You can read quite a number of stories of people dismissing horns without even listening.

I've heard it said that those that listen to horns can't hear.

It's just a generalization that I question.

There are good speakers and bad speakers in every category.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited October 22, 2015 by Grizzog

[dtel]

There are good speakers and bad speakers in every category.

 

True, and most important to me is I don't care what they think about horns.

 

I found Klipsch after searching for Altec Lansing speakers many years ago, so it was the horn sound I was looking for from the start.

[wvu80]

I do have LaScala's but the mid range is where music lives and all Klipsch have horn mid range to my knowledge. You still did not answer my question of why you still participate in a horn forum if you prefer cones better?

 

I'll answer that.

 

Some people have horn speakers, some people have dome tweeter or cone mid's, some have both, some have neither. 

 

There are some posting guidelines for participating on this forum.  No profanity, be polite, no politics, and etc.  There is NO requirement that one must possess or even like horns to post here.

 

ALL are welcome, for whatever their reasons, for which they DO NOT have to explain.

 

I'm not authorized by Klipsch.com to speak for them, or to speak for the Klipsch Forum Community as a whole, but I think I've got that right.

[Max2]

 

There are good speakers and bad speakers in every category.

 

True, and most important to me is I don't care what they think about horns.

 

I found Klipsch after searching for Altec Lansing speakers many years ago, so it was the horn sound I was looking for from the start.

 

 

 

I had a neighbor that had a set of Heresey's back in 1985. They blew my Advents away even though the Advents were twice the size. I think that time period may have been Advents last hurrah.   Three years later I was asked to pick up a pair of Walnut Cornwall II's direct from Hope that were used for a local fund raiser. It seemed an employee there was a big member in with this non profit org.  I got to hear them hooked up during the event and wanted them bad. I had already spent some time listening to all the Klipsch line at the local dealer when they were still around. Being in college, the money was a big stretch and the bidding started over my head. After that,  I couldn't shake it and each time I listened to the Advents I was reminded.   At the time, you rarely saw any used Klipsch around and you had to find them in the newspaper 'cause there was no Internet.  Long story short, I called the Doctor that bought them and come to find out it was the third pair of Cornwalls he owned and he said they were still in the box and he was just storing them along. After a lengthy conversation on music and what not he said he would sell them to me for what he paid.  I gave him $1200 for them and the rest is history.  I had them for a few years and turned around and sold them to a childhood friend that still has them today.  I then went and bought a used set of Walnut Belles an older gentleman had in Little Rock. After that I was hooked on the big mid horn.  I have owned several other pair of Klipsch since then from the Chorus model to KG's, La Scalas, KLF 30's etc,etc. Ironically I have never owned a set of Heresy's which started the revelation for my ears.

[wvu80]

WVU80 I'll agree with most everything you said but why would anyone want to come to a horn forum and trash talk horn speakers unless they are looking to argue.

 

Hmm.  Polite questions well taken, and the quick answer is I don't know.  I guess I didn't take his comments the same as you.

 

I've got to go for the moment, but give me a bit of time to go back and re-read the comments, to see what I've missed.  I'll get back to you. 

+++

 

Edit:  OK, I've re-read the entire thread, all 57 comments up to now.  The gentleman you refer to made one post, number 45.

 

In that post he stated his opinion, which is contrary to most of the posts here, but he owned his own statement.  He said he tried horns, he took them as far as he wanted to, they weren't for him at this point, and he moved on. 

 

He did use a little colorful and emotional language ("...your beloved manufacturer...") but he did not trash any brand name (he did imply) and he moved on to other posts, he did not stay to engage in a back-and-forth.

 

The post was not personal and not all that argumentative, at least to me.  There is a reason different companies use different approaches to sound reproduction. 

 

The post went into the category for me, of "no big deal." 

Edited October 22, 2015 by wvu80

[dtel]

Max2, on 22 Oct 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

 

dtel, on 22 Oct 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

 

Grizzog, on 22 Oct 2015 - 10:13 AM, said: There are good speakers and bad speakers in every category.

 

True, and most important to me is I don't care what they think about horns.

 

I found Klipsch after searching for Altec Lansing speakers many years ago, so it was the horn sound I was looking for from the start.

 

 

 

I had a neighbor that had a set of Heresey's back in 1985. They blew my Advents away even though the Advents were twice the size. I think that time period may have been Advents last hurrah.   Three years later I was asked to pick up a pair of Walnut Cornwall II's direct from Hope that were used for a local fund raiser. It seemed an employee there was a big member in with this non profit org.  I got to hear them hooked up during the event and wanted them bad. I had already spent some time listening to all the Klipsch line at the local dealer when they were still around. Being in college, the money was a big stretch and the bidding started over my head. After that,  I couldn't shake it and each time I listened to the Advents I was reminded.   At the time, you rarely saw any used Klipsch around and you had to find them in the newspaper 'cause there was no Internet.  Long story short, I called the Doctor that bought them and come to find out it was the third pair of Cornwalls he owned and he said they were still in the box and he was just storing them along. After a lengthy conversation on music and what not he said he would sell them to me for what he paid.  I gave him $1200 for them and the rest is history.  I had them for a few years and turned around and sold them to a childhood friend that still has them today.  I then went and bought a used set of Walnut Belles an older gentleman had in Little Rock. After that I was hooked on the big mid horn.  I have owned several other pair of Klipsch since then from the Chorus model to KG's, La Scalas, KLF 30's etc,etc. Ironically I have never owned a set of Heresy's which started the revelation for my ears.

 

Cool story Max, had some Baby Advents, they sounded ok, after the second cone re-foaming I gave them to a son in law, there his problem now, I'll stick with my honky horns.

[Travis In Austin]

Thanks to the electrical engineering prof who owned the hi-fi shop in the town where I went to college!!!!

There were three hi-fi shops in Berkeley and Oakland that were run by engineers. All carried horn loudspeakers.

Magico is in the Bay Area. Super high-end horns.

In the South Bay area in the 70s there were at least 3 full line Klipsch dealers within 10 miles of each other, all with giant rooms and all 5 speakers on display.

[Islander]

 

If your beloved manufactures speakers are so great why is the technical / modifications section overloaded with people trying to improve their sound?

 

I moved on because I pushed them to the limits and they still didn't pass my qualifications test.  And I enjoy playing with them more than I do Listening to them. Unless you have Klipschorns, LaScala's or Belles 90% of you only have half horn loaded speakers anyways. And I don't have a hatred for horns I just moved away from them for the open baffle sound.

 

 

Klipsch Heritage speakers get modified, not because they need it, but because their design, in the case of the Klipschorn, Belle and La Scala in particular, makes the parts visible and invites tweaking.  They're not mysterious boxes or monkey coffins, they're interesting machines, like classic cars with open-sided hoods that reveal the engines.

 

With most speakers, what you bought is what you got, but with Heritage speakers, there are even factory update kits, so you can upgrade your older speakers to the latest specifications.  One of my Heresy IIs is now a Heresy III, for a low price.

 

All speakers are built with costs in mind, except of course for money's-no-object ones that few people can afford.  What makes Heritage speakers sound so good is the synergy of the parts, rather than having extremely expensive parts that would not add up to better sound anyway.  Accordingly, they can be upgraded/hot-rodded economically, in ways that would not be practical for retail sales.

 

This has led to a community that has collectively acquired a pool of knowledge that is seen with few, if any, other speaker brands.  The factory cooperation in this benefits both the customers and the company, which is how we have speakers like the JubScala, which started with a suggestion from a customer, which was then followed up by the top Klipsch engineer. 

 

Are your open baffle speakers perfect?  Is there no way they could be improved?  Have you considered making the baffles a different size or shape, for just one example?  When you look at them, it's easy to see that open baffle speakers are just as tweakable as Klipsch Heritage speakers.

 

I hope this post answers your question.  Your comments were not out of place on a thread asking about attitudes about speaker types, but you can see how some people might see them as something more than you intended.

[cradeldorf]

 

 

 

Horns amplify because they are designed to amplify, build a horn with a different curve on every side and it will still be a horn but it will not amplify. They sound clearer because they prohibit the sound from going in other directions and creating reflections. It's just that simple. I have gone over to cone speakers myself because I don't need concert levels in my tiny living room. they're cool to impress your friends but after your done doing that... I mean who's gonna listen to a movie soundtrack at 100db's?

 

Why are you still hanging around a horn forum then? Everyone has different taste in music and I can understand liking the sound of cones better but why even responding to anything on this forum. This is a horn loving crowd. 

 

I enjoy my horns a low levels just as much as loud levels, to me they sound great at low levels. Different taste. 

 

If your beloved manufactures speakers are so great why is the technical / modifications section overloaded with people trying to improve their sound?

I moved on because I pushed them to the limits and they still didn't pass my qualifications test.  And I enjoy playing with them more than I do Listening to them. Unless you have Klipschorns, LaScala's or Belles 90% of you only have half horn loaded speakers anyways. And I don't have a hatred for horns I just moved away from them for the open baffle sound.

 

 

I do have LaScala's but the mid range is where music lives and all Klipsch have horn mid range to my knowledge. You still did not answer my question of why you still participate in a horn forum if you prefer cones better? Nelson Pass likes open baffle speakers and has some of the more expensive full range speakers and his company Pass Labs sells some very expensive cone speakers that are highly reviewed but he also listens to horn speakers for the live at the concert experience. He just purchased a back loaded horn, bass Altec 811 horn top end from a well reviewed competitor of Klipsch. I expect he has a better ear for great sound than most hobby listeners as most of us are since sound is not our occupation. I have researched open baffle designs quite a bit but decided not to try one but I do say I am sure they have a great sound when built and placed in the right position in the room. The ones I have seen in a room have to be rather large to prevent the back waves canceling the front because of being out of phase. The are a lot like the Bose 901's in they have a reflected sound coming off of a back wall and like the Bose speakers have to be placed at precisely the right distance from the back wall and if placed correctly they have a great soundstage from what I have read. But having to have a large front board and being placed out from the wall, and the ones I have seen are ft. not inches from the wall, will not have a very good "wife acceptance factor WAF."  Most builders also use some type of woofer to achieve a decent bottom end with the 6" to 8" full range driver. I will agree with you they they do probably have a great sound but no way does it have the dynamics of a good horn speaker. I am happy for you finding the speaker you prefer but again I ask, why participate in a forum of listeners that prefer the less distortion, more detail reveling, dynamic sound of great horn speakers? Move on to an open baffle forum and do not write negative things you perceive about horn speakers.  

 

I am sure an open baffle forum will love hearing how you tried horn speakers and never achieved the sound you liked and moved on to an open baffle system.

 

I enjoyed my KLF's  and that's how I began hanging out here. I do hang out on DIYaudio and the Altec site too because I enjoy learning about ideas and what others are up to. Nelson is a very successful person and I drool over his accomplishments as I do for most of the great audio gurus. I mean no harm just need a place to hang... My OB's are 30" wide and have a 15" PRV for Midrange a 4" Fostex top end and a 12" Dayton sub for the bottom end, they sit about 2' from the wall and I'm single so no need to worry about WAF. They sound very nice as I'm sure most of the guys systems on this forum do. Took me forever to get them to sound that way but hey that's what I love doing.

Edited October 23, 2015 by cradeldorf

[cradeldorf]

 

I reject the initial premise that audiophiles hate horns... I dont think that is a truism at all.

I have been to quite a number of "high end" shops, and have yet to see horns. The mere mention of horns makes some turn their noses up. You can read quite a number of stories of people dismissing horns without even listening.

I've heard it said that those that listen to horns can't hear.

It's just a generalization that I question.

There are good speakers and bad speakers in every category.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I bet if you went to the owners homes of those high end boutiques you'd see horns.

[cradeldorf]

 

There are good speakers and bad speakers in every category.

 

True, and most important to me is I don't care what they think about horns.

 

I found Klipsch after searching for Altec Lansing speakers many years ago, so it was the horn sound I was looking for from the start.

 

My first set of speakers were Altec 604's that's how I started in this endless quagmire of never ending search for "The Sound" It's quite elusive, But a journey I wouldn't trade for any other.

Edited October 23, 2015 by cradeldorf

[cradeldorf]

 

 

WVU80 I'll agree with most everything you said but why would anyone want to come to a horn forum and trash talk horn speakers unless they are looking to argue.

 

Hmm.  Polite questions well taken, and the quick answer is I don't know.  I guess I didn't take his comments the same as you.

 

I've got to go for the moment, but give me a bit of time to go back and re-read the comments, to see what I've missed.  I'll get back to you. 

+++

 

Edit:  OK, I've re-read the entire thread, all 57 comments up to now.  The gentleman you refer to made one post, number 45.

 

In that post he stated his opinion, which is contrary to most of the posts here, but he owned his own statement.  He said he tried horns, he took them as far as he wanted to, they weren't for him at this point, and he moved on. 

 

He did use a little colorful and emotional language ("...your beloved manufacturer...") but he did not trash any brand name (he did imply) and he moved on to other posts, he did not stay to engage in a back-and-forth.

 

The post was not personal and not all that argumentative, at least to me.  There is a reason different companies use different approaches to sound reproduction. 

 

The post went into the category for me, of "no big deal." 

 

 

PWK would never had made a comment to the things the gentleman said he would just show him the button inside his coat.    I'm just going to listen to my beloved manufacturer speakers I've enjoyed for 30 years knowing no one has really made speakers as good as PWK did for the price he sold them for. Most speakers made 30 years ago died many years ago. The gentleman will be proud to know he has a friend on the forum that represents the speakers he does not like. 

 

You seem to throw around big names like Paul and Nelson as though you hang out with them exclusively, I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth about not liking Klipsch speakers. Hell I have a pair of KLF 30's sitting in my dining room right now. they were the best sounding speakers I ever owned and up until about 6 months ago when I started getting the itch to play with speakers again I decided to go back and retry the OB method of which I had been to several times before I came across the KLFs. Why you seem to think you have the power to deem this an exclusive horn club I have no idea but keep it to yourself please as your labeling yourself as a PITA.

Edited October 23, 2015 by cradeldorf

[wvu80]

I'm glad we're all friends again! 

 

Now can we back to the subject of trash talking Bose?