Are we alone?

[Mallette]

The communication between quantum particles ACROSS the universe, in ZERO time. Quantum entanglement.

 

The implications of that are beyond any ability of a temporal creature to comprehend.  If there are fully evolved intelligences it's probably why we are both unaware of them as well as being incapable of being aware of them.

 

One of the old scifi series on TV referred to them as "ascended" for lack of a better description.

 

Dave

[Jim Naseum]

Right. The universe may be too complicated for the human species to understand. Just like goldfish in a bowl don't know that you have a pair of Klipsch speakers and have fun playing music through them, even though the goldfish can see the speakers and feel the vibrations. 

[JJkizak]

 

Is interstellar space travel even possible?

 

Here's what makes it tantalizing: The communication between quantum particles ACROSS the universe, in ZERO time. Quantum entanglement.

 

Then there is the currently popular theory that the universe is a 3D holographic projection with a black hole as the projector in every galaxy. If the resolution was good I might buy one.

JJK

Edited October 26, 2015 by JJKIZAK

[Fjd]

 

I suspect a few were laughing heartily during May 2003 (Sumerians) and December 21, 2012 (Mayans).

There were actually quite a few Mayan descendants that went on record to try and ease some of the stress and anxiety that media and Sci-Fi had hyped up. I recall one story my professors told me about one of the children of the men he was working with at the site of Teotihuacan killed himself, because "what's the point if we're all going to die next year anyway?"

Conspiracy theories and "doomsday predictions" are fun, until they're not. 2012 was one that stopped being funny as soon as people started living as if it was actually going to happen, or killing themselves because they believed it so true.

 

 

 

 

It really is a sad situation where people will so easily believe something without any type of validation.  There were many sources of information that tried to explain the Mayan calendar and debunk all of the doomsday predictions, but obviously they did not get through to a large portion of people.

 

 

Here is a quote on a similar situation in audio, although it may not lead to someone taking their own life. "As long as man brags of conquest, man will claim his “great discoveries”. To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast growing art of “high fidelity” the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people." - Paul W. Klipsch

 

On a side note, since I know someone that received one of these calls, I've tried to warn everyone I know of the scam below.

 

IRS-Impersonation Telephone Scam

An aggressive and sophisticated phone scam targeting taxpayers, including recent immigrants, has been making the rounds throughout the country. Callers claim to be employees of the IRS, but are not. These con artists can sound convincing when they call. They use fake names and bogus IRS identification badge numbers. They may know a lot about their targets, and they usually alter the caller ID to make it look like the IRS is calling. 

Victims are told they owe money to the IRS and it must be paid promptly through a pre-loaded debit card or wire transfer. If the victim refuses to cooperate, they are then threatened with arrest, deportation or suspension of a business or driver’s license. In many cases, the caller becomes hostile and insulting. Or, victims may be told they have a refund due to try to trick them into sharing private information.  If the phone isn't answered, the scammers often leave an “urgent” callback request.

 

Note that the IRS will never: 1) call to demand immediate payment, nor will the agency call about taxes owed without first having mailed you a bill; 2) demand that you pay taxes without giving you the opportunity to question or appeal the amount they say you owe; 3) require you to use a specific payment method for your taxes, such as a prepaid debit card; 4) ask for credit or debit card numbers over the phone; or 5) threaten to bring in local police or other law-enforcement groups to have you arrested for not paying.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Fjd

[jimjimbo]

I'm watching the movie "Contact" now....nope, we're not alone....

[WMcD]

I like Dave M's comments about the Library at Alexandria. Dave is a deep thinker.

There is the notion that libraries are the way that earlier philosophers speak to present philosophers. This is the preservation of knowledge. Let me add that some of what passes for truth in libraries might not quite be true. Aristotle and the earth centered heavens were pure misconceptions. Yet he was seen as such a brain that it was dangerous to challenge his ancient pronouncements. Arguably, if Aristotle had not be preserved, we've had gained a few hundred years. Dogma is dangerous.

But going back to libraries and preservation of knowledge. This is part of the Foundation trilogy by Asimov. The fall of civilization was known to be inevitable by the analysis of Psychohistory. IIRC the theory is that while the actions of individuals can't be predicted but the actions of large groups can be predicted -- the analogy being large groups of atoms. Also, on a smaller scale, people will postpone making decisions until there is only one option. What happens becomes predictable.

So The Second Foundation was created as a library to preserve human knowledge so that it will be available when civilization rebuilds itself.

I'll comment again on the need to allow engagement of all people in the expansion of human knowledge. It is no good if women, or name a given ethnic group, are systematically excluded.

On the bus today I noticed a woman reading a book. She had very thick glasses. It struck me that some really great thinkers did not have access to books before eyeglasses were invented. Smile.

Now, we return you to the normally scheduled program about aliens.

WMcD

[WMcD]

Okay. I can see how quantum entanglement would allow trans-light speed communication.

E.g.: NCC-1701 leaves Starbase 7 with a lot of molecules which are entangled with molecules left on Starbase 7. Uhura can cause changes to her entangled molecules and then the molecules on Starbase 7 change and thus she is sending a message instantaneously. Starbase 7 can do the same.

All well and good. But this requires entangled molecules to be brought along on the journey. A civilization on the other side of the galaxy is not going to have a supply. Entanglement doesn't mean communication with those far off civilization.

It is interesting that quantum entanglement was anticipated in the 1600's (on Earth). These were the days where a means was sought to measure a sailing ship's longitude. That is, how far east or west it was from, typically, England. It was recognized that it would be necessary for the ship to know "local time" and the time in Greenwich, England.

If you don't mind: You can determine "local time" by "shooting the sun" with a sextant (consider Master and Commander; that is what the young lads were doing). When the sun is at its highest of the day, you know it is noon, right there in the middle of the sea. If you have a very accurate clock on board set to time in England, which you've taken along and see that it is midnight back in England, you know you're half way around the world. Different offsets mean different latitudes, but you know where you are. Hence accurate chronometers were needed.

Okay. I'm getting there. The good clock isn't communication with England but it is knowledge of what time it is in England. Instantaneous signaling of time in England would do as well.

There was a pamphlet circulated in England at the time (1600's) which suggested instantaneous communication. It goes that if a dog was wounded with a knife a bandage or the knife could be kept in England. The dog goes on the ship as it sails to the other side of the world. Then at noon in England the bandage (or the knife in some tales) could be dipped in a magic potion and the dog on the ship now far away would yelp. Sort of radio transmission of the time in Greenwich.

Ya think I'm kidding?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_of_sympathy

This seems like quantum entanglement to me. Smile. Note that there is a scheme for entanglement and something has to be brought along.

 

The pamphlet mis​sed a bigger potential.  Another dog could have been left in England and the corresponding magic potion and bandage brought on the ship.  That way there could have been two-way instantaneous Morse Code communication by doggie yelps. 

 

Uhura would have loved it.

WMcD

Edited October 27, 2015 by William F. Gil McDermott

[Mallette]

Gil, I studied the Alexandrine library way back and have remained fascinated at the loss to humanity.  Most of what we built on in the Renaissance was from the mere remnants of that knowledge.  Hippocrates, Imhotep, Hero, Euclid, Herodotus, Pythagoras...SO many more and for the most part lost and had to reinvent.  Many of those mentioned learned what they built on, or outright plagiarized material from the library. 

 

We still don't understand the magnitude of ancient technology.  The Lake Nemi ships were found to be equipped with double acting pumps not seen again until the 19th century.  Egyptian surgical techniques are still not fully understood, the Antikythera mechanisim (now being challenged as a hoax, though that evidence is pretty slim and simply based on it's incredible complexity), the huge Roman mechanized mills at Bargegal, and many more tantalizing tidbits of technology that suggest a world far more advanced than the remains. 

 

For me, it suggests that the Roman world was so advanced that it resembles what a modern apocalypse would be like.  The collapse of the entire system was so cataclysmic as to leave no one with the skills to even operate the water system, much less build or maintain double acting pumps. 

 

Our accumulated knowledge now rests in digital form, the modern Alexandrine library.  One solar flare like the 1859 solar flare and it's gone, along with the grid and pretty much all digital technology.  And we have NO idea how often that happens sense until the advent of crude electrical systems like the telegraph systems of that day we had nothing they would affect. 

 

Scares me a lot more than aliens or most of the other fears of the day.

 

Dave

[Nismo]

Can't put a faraday cage around everything. Solar flare is a "natural" source. Destructive, but natural. The (sad) probability in today's world.... would be from a far more nefarious source. That's scary.

[Mallette]

Destruction is the same regardless of the source.  A solar flare of that magnitude would destroy our civilization.  OK, that's assuming you agree we have one.  

 

Dave

[Wolfbane]

Right. The universe may be too complicated for the human species to understand. Just like goldfish in a bowl don't know that you have a pair of Klipsch speakers and have fun playing music through them, even though the goldfish can see the speakers and feel the vibrations. 

 

According to recent reports (PBS) your goldfish can in fact recognize the human's who look after them. My father had a pet cat as a child that knew when he would be coming home from school. This cat would actually walk down the street in the direction of dad's school to meet him on school days at the appointed time. His cue, I suspect, was seeing dad leave the house in the morning on school days.  

 

None of dad's eight other family members were accorded the same treatment. I suspect my dad was this cat's 'pet' for the more than 20 years the cat ended up living. Every dog we've owned has decided who belongs to him/her. The 'non-pet' family members were appreciated but not to the same degree with the last Bichon we owned who decided he belonged to my wife. The only time he liked me as well was when I was preparing dinner. I'd make gravy or a sauce or carve the roast/turkey/ham, etc. with the dog never leaving my side or taking his beady brown eyes off me.

[Islander]

So, Sagan presents a picture of space probes with Greek lettering. Let's say they could have accomplished that in 700 A.D. had their civilization survived.

 

His reasoning isn't bad, but I feel like the Romans would be a better choice, and maybe 1200  or so AD.  Of course, pure speculation and alternative history.  But the real loss was the Alexandrine library which was the equivalent of the web.  The accumulated learning of all mankind.  Most of the "dark ages" were spent simply relearning all of that.  We'd have been WAY ahead of where we are had that library not been lost.

 

Dave

There was one group who acted to preserve and then redistribute some of the classic Greek and Roman learning during and after the Dark Ages: Irish monks. Ireland was sufficiently isolated to be relatively unaffected by events on the European mainland, although those pesky Vikings caused lots of trouble. The ancient scribes kept what they could of the ancient scrolls and manuscripts.

When things began to improve, centuries later, most monarchs had an Irish monk or two among their advisors, and some Irish monks founded universities in places like Italy, a long way from their homeland. The learning they had kept then became more widely known.

The story is told in the proudly-titled book "How the Irish Saved Civilization", by Thomas Cahill. I wouldn't call it undisputed truth, but it is an interesting idea.

Some info here: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/09/bsp/irish.html

And a little bit more: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25669.How_the_Irish_Saved_Civilization

Edited October 29, 2015 by Islander

[Islander]

Is interstellar space travel even possible?

 

Here's what makes it tantalizing: The communication between quantum particles ACROSS the universe, in ZERO time. Quantum entanglement.

In science fiction, at least, there is such a device: the ansible. It first appeared in a novel by Ursula K. Le Guin.

The Wiki page on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansible

[MyOwn]

My answer to

Are we alone? No Flipping Way

I would love to encouter other life outside our own Earth :)

[BigStewMan]

I've been a Slider for many years now...i've visited many parallel worlds...there is a Klipsch forum on most of them. 

if you don't like any of my posts, blame it on my doppleganger.

[Jim Naseum]

So, Sagan presents a picture of space probes with Greek lettering. Let's say they could have accomplished that in 700 A.D. had their civilization survived.

His reasoning isn't bad, but I feel like the Romans would be a better choice, and maybe 1200 or so AD. Of course, pure speculation and alternative history. But the real loss was the Alexandrine library which was the equivalent of the web. The accumulated learning of all mankind. Most of the "dark ages" were spent simply relearning all of that. We'd have been WAY ahead of where we are had that library not been lost.

Dave

There was one group who acted to preserve and then redistribute some of the classic Greek and Roman learning during and after the Dark Ages: Irish monks. Ireland was sufficiently isolated to be relatively unaffected by events on the European mainland, although those pesky Vikings caused lots of trouble. The ancient scribes kept what they could of the ancient scrolls and manuscripts.

When things began to improve, centuries later, most monarchs had an Irish monk or two among their advisors, and some Irish monks founded universities in places like Italy, a long way from their homeland. The learning they had kept then became more widely known.

The story is told in the proudly-titled book "How the Irish Saved Civilization", by Thomas Cahill. I wouldn't call it undisputed truth, but it is an interesting idea.

Some info here: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/09/bsp/irish.html

And a little bit more: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25669.How_the_Irish_Saved_Civilization

You can go to Trinity College on Dublin and see the works of the Irish monks. Very impressive.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[dtel]

I like Dave M's comments about the Library at Alexandria. Dave is a deep thinker.

 

 

True, always something surprising coming from him, and a little scary at times.     

[MyOwn]

I've been a Slider for many years now...i've visited many parallel worlds...there is a Klipsch forum on most of them. 

if you don't like any of my posts, blame it on my doppleganger.

I would only hope Klipsch Forum is in all sentient worlds...

[WMcD]

Dave, I like your posts on the loss of the library.

We should be thankful that two important works (at least as far as Roman civil engineering( were created after the library was lost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvius

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontinus

It is a shame that there was not something similar regarding the manufacture of brass or bronze valves and pumps, or it has not come to my attention.

Gosh I slap my forehead. It seems the Roman name for cupric (copper based) metals was based on the fact that cupric came from the island of Cyprus where there were copper mines.

Now, what were the Indians up to in those days. They're know for working brass for a very long time.

WMcD

.

[oldtimer]

Obviously we are alone with our own thoughts.  It's not that pretty  at all...