Deang Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) At first I thought it was someone trolling my website because of the topics we have been covering -- but since I normally get a couple of these a week anyways, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. Okay, this person isn't necessarily shopping for crossovers per se' - but mostly looking for a solid opinion. He might be eying the SuperX, and I would be perfectly fine with starting to close the deal IF I was convinced that they would help him out of his problem. I received this email almost an hour ago, and started like I always do, by running down all of the specifications on the amplifiers he's using, because though customers know their gear, they don't always know it as well as they think they do. So, you guys get to play "crankysoldermeister" for a day, and help me help this poor guy out. There is only one rule. A new network is the last resort. Edited October 30, 2015 by Deang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Minor Off Topic: Dean, wasn't your old forum name "crankysoldermeister" or something to that effect? I'm just trying to keep straight who is who on the forum. Thanks. -Dave +++ Minor ON Topic: I don't have any expertise regarding tech suggestions on LS sound, but the person writing the email does not sound like someone trolling. The question is too detailed and specific for a standard troll, whose goal is usually trying to elicit emotional responses (usually negative) from readers. Dean, you mentioned you want forum members to respond to his request for assistance and make his having a new XO the last resort, but as I read the email, he is asking you specifically for a suggestion on one of your networks that might address his concerns. Again, that is a personal observation on my part as making suggestions on LS networks is way above my pay grade. Since he is asking you, I think that gives you leave to suggest one of your products is you truly think it will help. I think you are going out of your way to NOT be pushy, and to not "sell" a product. If you think one of your networks will help, tell the guy that. You are perfectly well within the boundaries of helpfulness to do that. Edited October 30, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I can't copy or quote on this machine but it appears that our new friend from the ALK Alternative Crossover thread is reaching out to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Lol. Yes, I was "crankysoldermeister" for a while. I was tagged with that by Thaddeus, and I thought it was funny, so I ran with it. I suffer from Clinical Depression, and sometimes I can be less than pleasant. When that happens I try to stay away from here to spare you guys. Anyways, normally I'm just Deang, and wouldn't you know it, he's just as annoying as "crankysoldermeister". Edited October 30, 2015 by Deang 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Maybe, maybe not- but it will still be a good exercise for the forum considering everything it just went through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dean, wasn't your old forum name "crankysoldermeister" That was a moniker I gave him but not his username. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Anyways, normally I'm just Deang, and wouldn't you know it, he's just as annoying as "crankysoldermeister". Holy cow, don't refer to yourself in the third person, I'm confused enough as it is! If we're voting, I prefer the "Deang" handle. And I'm sure I haven't read all 20,000 of your posts, but when you post that much you are going to put a lot of yourself "out there," which means sometimes good stuff, sometimes not. All of the posts of yours I've read have been of the helpful kind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I referred this individual to you since he wanted a crossover with a constant impedance but did not want to deal with Al. I told him I noticed you had the economy super X for $450 and he should talk to you about it. He was on this website this morning seeking advice. I see, thanks. That helps me understand some things and put them in context. I don't speak for everyone here, but as far as I'm concerned members with tech questions are always welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Dean, The issue sounds like frequency response only - not phase/delay,etc. The immediate question that comes to mind is: Why not suggest running TrueRTA in-room and then just EQ everything flat again? It's the most straightforward way to do it. Digital EQ units are really clean. If it's a "purist audiophile" issue, then the next suggestion is about the only other thing to do. The next approach would be to add Zobels on the front end of his existing crossover networks, but I believe that you need the measured input impedance/frequency values to do that. I'm not a Zobel guy, but you know at least a couple or three guys that are. EDIT: One last-resort, brute-force way to do it would be to do what this guy did to increase the resistive part of the impedance load, and thereby flatten response. It sounds pretty extreme but it seems to work, and it's cheap. Chris Edited October 30, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I hate to use the word 'synergy', but my totally biazed opinion is the amp isn't a good match fot the LS. (If my typing is bad it's because i'm using my phone... on vacation in the Philippines) Bruce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hmm I did not realize Klipsch Heritage had extreme impedance swings, Its interesting I equated there relative ease to drive with a stable response. (guess thats why I dont build crossovers, that and my soldering is pretty poor ) My initial thought was Amp / Gear mismatch as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I like the Econo and the Super X a lot and it sounds great in my K-horns or my LaScalas. I wouldn't mind moving the pair of Econo's along to someone just starting to look for some adjustability and picking up another pair of the Super X's with the Audiocap Theta's...... Just a thought Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Here's a simple Zobel network calculator. And another Zobel network calculator...this one looks a little bit more useful. Yet another Zobel calculator... And a little more discussion on Zobels. It's very clear to me that his "Doge 9" amplifier has too high an output impedance...a.k.a., too low a "damping factor". It may also have output transformer issues. I can't find anything on output impedance of Scott 299 (any version) or the Doge 9 (and watch out for the web sites on the Doge--they look a little dodgy...so says my antivirus software). I'd advise him to use something to mitigate the impedance rise of the Crites crossovers+La Scala drivers, and use the 4-ohm tap on his Doge 9 amplifier. He's got more than enough power to drive any added resistance in series. A La Scala impedance curve from an old brochure: Chris Edited October 30, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 I'm sorry Carl, why did I think "Snarky" hit me with that one? He didn't like the sound with the 4 ohm taps with Doge either, he said there were "no highs". The sound he's getting with the A/4500 and the Scott sounds "normal". Like Chris said, the Doge might be a low or zero feedback design, which is kind of nutty -- most push-pull designs with that much power have a higher damping factor. @Joe, Klipsch loads are reactive. I had always said that unless your amp is a total piece of crap, it couldn't care less what the impedance is doing. Sounds like the Donge might either have some design issues or like Bruce said, we might just have a prime example here of a poor synergistic match. This is where the real fun begins, talking to the customer and getting more information. What if I just sell a pair of crossovers and he's still unhappy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 From my own experience with the Scott 299 I'd say it sounds like the speakers and crossover are fine. I'm not sure exactly what he means when he says "lean" in regards to the 299 but I would say that I liked the sound with the 299 a lot but preferred the additional horsepower of the VRD's (stereo or mono block). In comparison with the VRD's I can see calling the 299 "lean"... might be a word I would use as well. Dean, your concern is valid. I wouldn't think new crossovers would fix an amp problem. I get the impression that it sounds pretty darn good with the Scott. If that is not entirely correct I would start checking the drivers and any other usual suspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Thanks Dean, I certainly understand your concerns, you sell a custom built item only to have a customer unhappy, That is a situation where there is potential for hard feelings at the least I am sure you tell everyone this and likely have it posted more than once on your site I would think your only defense would be clear and concise that these are custom made and there is no warranty when it comes to liking the final sound only a faulty product Worded better than my ham fisted crap of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 30, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dean, wasn't your old forum name "crankysoldermeister" That was a moniker I gave him but not his username. You should have trademarked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 A lot can be said for the information gathering aspect of the crossover purchase. The last set of crossovers I had Dean work on were virtually unlistenable to me. It was a combination of old caps and pretty much the wrong tool for the job. Dean spent a lot of time asking what I didn't like about the sound and finding out what drivers and horns I had. By the time he was done casting chicken bones I had a set of networks that did what I wanted and sounded pleasing to me. Sorry if this comes off as an infomercial but I think Bob and Dean both do a great job of looking at the overall picture as opposed to just hawking wares. There's more to this than just numbers and plots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 180 watts of push-pull 211 for LaScala speakers? Seems really overkill to me. What speakers are there that were meant to use with a Doge 9 beast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 A simple LRC in parallel will flatten the impedance, no need to change the network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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