I Pledge Allegiance......

[JiminSTL]

So what are you saying about shared values? Why all the veiled stuff about shared community and values?

 

Total nonsense.  But, that's what you believe... 

 

Hmmmm.  Won't speculate on the reason(s) for what sounds to be disdainful of and hostile to my comments.  Nor will I reply in kind.  Perhaps you will come to a different understanding as your lives unfold.  And perhaps not . . . . 

[Travis In Austin]

So what are you saying about shared values? Why all the veiled stuff about shared community and values?

Total nonsense. But, that's what you believe...

Hmmmm. Won't speculate on the reason(s) for what sounds to be disdainful of and hostile to my comments. Nor will I reply in kind. Perhaps you will come to a different understanding as your lives unfold. And perhaps not . . . .

I throughly disdain people who try and link the greatness of our country with religion. Even more so when they try to do it on this forum where it isn't allowed.

I have no use for people that think God made this Country great. Great men and women made this Country great, they all had gifts granted by their Creator, but that is true everywhere in the world. We don't have royal families here, or state sanctioned religion for a reason. It leads to ruin and the founding fathers were keenly aware of that, especially Jefferson and Adams.

It never ceases to amaze me when people discover what a Unitarian beleives or what Deism is based upon, and they are say "wow, that's not what I was taught about the main author of the Declaration."

Or when they come up with the Constitution was divinely inspired. When you press them on it for a source they say well look how great we are, and how long we have lasted. No diary of Madison, no letters, no notes about accepting or rejecting the New Jersey plan only after hours of meditation and prayer, because it just isn't there.

There are two things that could easily change my mind. One is a long lost manuscript or diary of one of the founding fathers that makes all of the scholarship and research on this subject clearly wrong, or that their voluminous original writings are revealed to be forgeries.

The other is that God Almighty, for some reason, chooses me to to be the vehicle to receive that revelation and reveal it to the world.

Until then I will continue to believe that we got a great Constitution by great men coming up with great ideas who were willing to compromise, even if it meant continuing with that peculiar institution.

That peculiar institution is the logical counter to the argument that we are a great Country only because of God's help: they argue that is proof of free will and NO intervention, He would never help a Country with that institution ingrained in its constitution and law.

It is just one of those things that we will never know, that's why they call it faith. There certainly isn't any historical basis for it, at least not yet.

[Don Richard]

Hmmmm. Won't speculate on the reason(s) for what sounds to be disdainful of and hostile to my comments

 

To start with, your apparent inability to recognize that bunting or flag-like decorations are not a flag, then presenting a flawed argument to justify outrage that was caused by your own misunderstanding.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Don Richard

[JiminSTL]

Interesting, isn’t it?  How merely the stating of facts can produce such—alternately—different responses.  To wit, some may be incited and enflamed; some choose to be informed, and others are inspired by them.  Same facts, however because of a different chosen response, a different result.

 

So, without emphasis on any person(alities) whose comments precede this one of mine, may I offer some (inconvenient?) truths on this glorious day celebrating the declaring of our independence, as a people and a place and a history-making principle, from the British crown.

 

People often start from a confused beginning, interchanging “religion” and “faith”.  Religion involves the garments and ornaments with which Man dresses his worship.  Christian faith, in this instance, is a man’s (person’s) acceptance of the Gospel, belief in it, and acting upon it.  The good news of forgiveness of our sins, and the call to live according to the principles of God, and enjoy eternal communion and joy with Him.

 

Those believing that this country was originally settled by people “looking for religious freedom” have misread the facts.  It happens that settlers from the time of the Mayflower (Compact) and forward for generations were seeking the right to worship their Christianity.  Pilgrims came here largely because they believed that the English had become immoral and irreligious (Paul Johnson, A History of the American People).  To quote further:

               

“In the meantime, what of the real priesthood, the real religion of the people?  . . . the part played by the churches, or by Christianity, as such, in the constitution-making.  As we have seen, America had been founded primarily for religious purposes, and the Great Awakening had been the original dynamic of the continental movement for independence.  The Americans were overwhelmingly church-going, much more so than the English . . . .  The Pilgrim Fathers had come to America precisely because England had become immoral and irreligious.  They had built the ‘City on the Hill.’  . . . they felt their subjugation was itself immoral and irreligious and opposed to the Providential Plan.  There is no question that the Declaration of Independence was, to those who signed it, a religious as well as a secular act (italics mine), and that the Revolutionary War had the approbation of divine providence.  They had won it with God’s blessing and, afterwards, they drew up their framework of government with God’s blessing, just as in the 17^th century the colonists had drawn up their Compacts and Charters and Orders and Instruments, with God peering over their shoulders.”

 

That is not to say that our understanding/interpretation of the issue of “religious freedom” has not changed over time.  Clearly, it has.  Some very accurate historically-evident instances of our start in this process are provided below.  There are many others:

1. Virginia

Official Religion: Anglican/Church of England

Original Charter Date: Apr. 10,1606

Full text of The First Charter of Virginia  (PDF) 15.5K

Ended Support: 1830

"Every Person should go to church, Sundays and Holidays, or lye Neck and Heels that Night, and be a Slave to the Colony the following Week; for the second Offence, he should be a Slave for a Month; and for the third, a Year and a Day."

Governor Argall's Decree 1617

2.        "That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Virginia Declaration of Rights,1776

3.        "THAT Noe person or persons which professe ffaith in God by Jesus Christ Shall at any time be any wayes molested punished disquieted or called in Question for any Difference in opinion or Matter of Religious Concernment" 

 

New York Charter of Liberties and Privileges, 1683

4.        "Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments. provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

 

Article III. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.

 

Chapter VI. Article I. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant-governor, councillor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall, before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

 

'I _______, do declare that I believe the Christian religion...'"

 

Massachusetts Constitution, 1780

 

5. Maryland

Official Religion: Anglican/Church of England

Original Charter Date: June 20, 1632

Full text of The Charter of Maryland  (PDF) 22.6K

Ended Support: 1867

 

 

And so on.  The point?  Only relevant to those who attempt to do justice to the facts.  Useless to those who are intent upon their preferred opinion, irrespective of the facts.

 

Now, can we not enjoy the remainder of this day, history making and changing day, in the unity which inspired it?

 

May we in this country bless God, and be blessed by Him in return!

Edited July 4, 2016 by JiminSTL

[doggydoc10]

May I say this, and then go to bed?

It is only SUFFICIENTLY SHARED VALUES among a sufficient number of people that make a nation. Diminish the values, diminish the number, and diminish the shared community of people, and you reduce/remove the essence of nationhood.

Our founding fathers had it so right: only an educated and moral people would be able to sustain our representative form of government. In fact, they were the only "worthy" ones.

It pains me so greatly that even the LAST BASTIONS of our sense of honor and integrity and faith and duty--our military armed forces--have been so politicized that their calling is promotion within politicized ranks and system, that "American" conveys so little of what it used to mean.

I say that with a father who was a 1938 graduate of the USNA (fought 2 wars), I was a 5-year Naval officer, and my son a 4-year Marine Corps officer. My advice about country and duty and honor is very different today with the "leaders" and system we now have.

Couldn't have said it better.

I do thank you for making MY country safe....

So true

Always at sea;

Dr. Antonio Longo

[JiminSTL]

Dr. L., thank you for your kind words.

[Travis In Austin]

Interesting, isn’t it? How merely the stating of facts can produce such—alternately—different responses. To wit, some may be incited and enflamed; some choose to be informed, and others are inspired by them. Same facts, however because of a different chosen response, a different result.

So, without emphasis on any person(alities) whose comments precede this one of mine, may I offer some (inconvenient?) truths on this glorious day celebrating the declaring of our independence, as a people and a place and a history-making principle, from the British crown.

People often start from a confused beginning, interchanging “religion” and “faith”. Religion involves the garments and ornaments with which Man dresses his worship. Christian faith, in this instance, is a man’s (person’s) acceptance of the Gospel, belief in it, and acting upon it. The good news of forgiveness of our sins, and the call to live according to the principles of God, and enjoy eternal communion and joy with Him.

Those believing that this country was originally settled by people “looking for religious freedom” have misread the facts. It happens that settlers from the time of the Mayflower (Compact) and forward for generations were seeking the right to worship their Christianity. Pilgrims came here largely because they believed that the English had become immoral and irreligious (Paul Johnson, A History of the American People). To quote further:

“In the meantime, what of the real priesthood, the real religion of the people? . . . the part played by the churches, or by Christianity, as such, in the constitution-making. As we have seen, America had been founded primarily for religious purposes, and the Great Awakening had been the original dynamic of the continental movement for independence. The Americans were overwhelmingly church-going, much more so than the English . . . . The Pilgrim Fathers had come to America precisely because England had become immoral and irreligious. They had built the ‘City on the Hill.’ . . . they felt their subjugation was itself immoral and irreligious and opposed to the Providential Plan. There is no question that the Declaration of Independence was, to those who signed it, a religious as well as a secular act (italics mine), and that the Revolutionary War had the approbation of divine providence. They had won it with God’s blessing and, afterwards, they drew up their framework of government with God’s blessing, just as in the 17^th century the colonists had drawn up their Compacts and Charters and Orders and Instruments, with God peering over their shoulders.”

That is not to say that our understanding/interpretation of the issue of “religious freedom” has not changed over time. Clearly, it has. Some very accurate historically-evident instances of our start in this process are provided below. There are many others:

1. Virginia

Official Religion: Anglican/Church of England

Original Charter Date: Apr. 10,1606

Full text of The First Charter of Virginia (PDF) 15.5K

Ended Support: 1830

"Every Person should go to church, Sundays and Holidays, or lye Neck and Heels that Night, and be a Slave to the Colony the following Week; for the second Offence, he should be a Slave for a Month; and for the third, a Year and a Day."

Governor Argall's Decree 1617

2. "That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Virginia Declaration of Rights,1776

3. "THAT Noe person or persons which professe ffaith in God by Jesus Christ Shall at any time be any wayes molested punished disquieted or called in Question for any Difference in opinion or Matter of Religious Concernment"

New York Charter of Liberties and Privileges, 1683

4. "Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments. provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

Article III. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.

Chapter VI. Article I. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant-governor, councillor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall, before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

'I _______, do declare that I believe the Christian religion...'"

Massachusetts Constitution, 1780

5. Maryland

Official Religion: Anglican/Church of England

Original Charter Date: June 20, 1632

Full text of The Charter of Maryland (PDF) 22.6K

Ended Support: 1867

And so on. The point? Only relevant to those who attempt to do justice to the facts. Useless to those who are intent upon their preferred opinion, irrespective of the facts.

Now, can we not enjoy the remainder of this day, history making and changing day, in the unity which inspired it?

May we in this country bless God, and be blessed by Him in return!

Well there's your problem, you are citing Paul Johnson as authority.

You don't want to discuss historical facts, you want to quote a book that relies less on historical truth than you do.

You have yet to state a fact, that is the problem. You are stating your beliefs, and in support thereof inferring they are supported by historical facts. The problem is they are not based upon facts, despite what Mr. Johnson writes.

It would be news to Jefferson, who didn't believe Jesus performed any miracles and didn't believe in a Trinity, that the document he was the primary author of was divinely inspired. His corrispondence about it takes the opposite view.

Adams and Jefferson sent each other corrispondence that rejoyced over Virgina abolishing an official religion.

GW would likewise disagree that he sought help from his Maker. He actually got his *** kicked the first few go arounds, I can suggest some great books on this if you are interested.

Nice pivot from the "founders" in your initial post to the Pilgrams. What you have confused is the settlors in the 1600s were not coming to start a country, they were coming to start, or join a colony, with the King's blessing. They all considered themselves to be English right up to the time of Independence. The founders you mentioned in your original post come along 100 years after the Pilgrims you mention just above.

I agree that Religion was very much an issue on why various colonies were created, one who knows history would say three key ones are Rhode Island, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. One of the items you pasted about Maryland mentions an the Church of England as the official church. I will have to check into that as Maryland is genetally understood to be a safe have for Catholics which really wouldn't mesh with the Anglican Church.

The "founders" of our Country are well established, they are the signers and the framers.

By the way, it wasn't in fact a history making day, July 4th as a holiday was picked out of convenience.

The "unity" which inspired it? Which unity? There was neither unity in declaring independence, nor was their unity in drafting or ratifying the Constitution.

I would say you are way in over your head on the history part, and the copy and paste of old laws isn't going to help you. You said it was a belief in God by the "founders" that got us independence and where we are now, yet none of the laws you have pasted have anything to do with the founders, most predate the time of seeking independence by a century.

Your original premise was that America is strong because of God's influence, and it was the founders' belief in God that contributed to this result.

The first part obviously isn't historical, it is a belief which well may be true, I personally hope it is. The fact that the signers and framers believed they were doing a devine act, or won because of devine providence are obviously assertions of historical.

Get me a source on that and I would be happy to take a look at it, but I think you will find that the people who rely on the historical record and have written about it don't find any support for your premise.

Now the Civil War, that's a whole 'nother story, God clearly liked Abe and hated the South.

[JiminSTL]

dwi, you must be a very unhappy man.  As full of opprobrium as incorrect "understanding".  

 

It is clear that you are not a man to be reasoned with.  So, let's simply part ways, shall we?

 

Edit:  Oh, and God makes clear that He does not "hate" people, nor nations.  He gave all of Himself in order to deliver us from our desserts (perhaps you prefer the original "deserts").  He does, however, hate sin.  

Edited July 5, 2016 by JiminSTL

[Paducah Home Theater]

or better yet a bikini on a buxom young lady.

I think you mean something like this...

If you're going to do it, do it right.

[jimjimbo]

Yep, I'm a Stars and Stripes man from way back.....

[Travis In Austin]

dwi, you must be a very unhappy man. As full of opprobrium as incorrect "understanding".

It is clear that you are not a man to be reasoned with. So, let's simply part ways, shall we?

Edit: Oh, and God makes clear that He does not "hate" people, nor nations. He gave all of Himself in order to deliver us from our desserts (perhaps you prefer the original "deserts"). He does, however, hate sin.

I am extremely happy, ask anyone on here who has met me in person.

I simply asked for a source that the founding fathers were a "godly people" inspired by their God to come up with the Declaration or the Constitution. If they were that should be easy to come up with. Maybe I simply misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Hate was too strong of a word on my part. One should never use descriptors of human emotions in describing the action of God.

Let me state it another way:

God loved Abe and the North who were Godly people, the South, apparently not so much.

God loves Notre Dame.

[garyrc]

I can't tell you where, but I heard that some of the strongest advocates of separation of Church and State, and the state establishing no religion, were members of religious denominations, who didn't want some OTHER denomination, having gained influence with the government, telling them what to believe, or how to worship.

 

Benjamin Franklin was religiously tolerant, and, according to their website, contributed to the building fund of Congregation Mikveh Israel.

http://www.mikvehisrael.org/e2_cms_display.php?p=past_our_history

 

Jefferson assembled a version of the New Testament by (literally) cutting and pasting.  His version apparently excluded miracles.  He wrote to John Adams that if such an editing job were to be properly done, "There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

 

Jefferson may have intended the Declaration to read, "We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable," but Franklin persuaded him to approve "self evident."  He did credit "Nature and Nature's God."

 

John Adams said "I have attended public worship in all countries and with all sects and believe them all much better than no religion, though I have not thought myself obliged to believe all I heard."   He told Jefferson, "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."   http://uudb.org/articles/johnadams.html

 

I would think it would be safe to say that these three were fairly independent thinkers, influenced by longstanding Jewish and Christian traditions, as well as by Deism, but not in lockstep with any particular religious denomination.  Nor would they be likely to be.

Edited July 5, 2016 by garyrc

[Don Richard]

The important thing to realize is that our country does not recognize any particular religion as the officially sanctioned of our country. It's evident, when looking throughout history, that state-sanctioned religions cause more problems than they solve. Our country's founders realized that it was so important that freedom of, and from, religion is included in the first amendment of our country's constitution.

[JiminSTL]

^ That is exactly correct.  Which is why the morphing of the judicial and popular interpretation of "freedom of religion" into "freedom from religion" in the public sector is so dangerous to our political health.  It removes the very tenants of our republican construction (the source of our "unalienable rights") from the original and rightful position.  Our rights exist prior to and independent of any governmental grant of them.  The pre-existing rights (as God-given, not government or man-given) are the sine qua non of enduring liberty.

 

Eliminate that sole pillar, and we have the types of legal absurdities and monstrosities being foisted off on us every day.

[Don Richard]

A religion that has no gods, one god, or many gods is viewed equally by the Constitution in our country. Believe anything you like, it's OK.

[Marvel]

One can listen or read modern politicians, actors, lawyers, or even next door neighbors, and believe they are religious, yet in actuality they are not. I have had relatives, who grew up in the Great Depression, who rarely, if ever, spoke of their own belief in God. They never would say anything in public about it.  Yet, somewhere within, when pressed, or when their lives were coming to an end, would show an incredible depth of understanding, of what they believed, about a creator, where they stood with him and what was expected of them in this life.

 

My point being, even when we have the written words from someone in this nation's past, those words may or may not fully express what they fully meant and understood, no matter their position in society. Personally, I can be particularly tolerant of anyone's beliefs, as long as they don't infringe upon my own right to live by what I believe. And that is what this nation was built upon.

 

--

 

Maryland was, indeed, a haven for Catholics, although there were anti Catholic riots in the early 1800s, with homes and businesses burned. Much was against the Irish Catholics who fled the oppression of the English, only to be treated poorly here.

[babadono]

I could think and write many great thoughts if I had hundreds of slaves doing my work for me.

[TasDom]

Wow this thread really blew up.

 

Maybe next time I should think twice before giving Klipsh a plug on a promotional item. 

[Travis In Austin]

Wow this thread really blew up.

 

Maybe next time I should think twice before giving Klipsh a plug on a promotional item. 

It was fine until someone felt the need to pontificate.

[Fish]

I could think and write many great thoughts if I had hundreds of slaves doing my work for me.

What a load of total Bullshit ! Classic Bullshit .