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PeteVoxx

LS II's - Not sounding as good as I thought

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Currently working with Klipsch folks to resolve but in the mean time I wanted to see if anyone had LS II's and what their Audyssey set the EQ for.  Mine is at +6 DB for 4, 8 & 16K.  Overall, the sound from these things is extremely flat and mid & HF even with the EQ set that high.  I had a pair of '78's that sounded beautiful.  Klipsch are sending me new networks to test but that won't happen for a week or so.  Attached illustrates my Audyssey settings as auto-configured.

 

Thanks, all!!!

audyssey.jpg

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I think we are going to need more info....like what you using for power...pic of the set up...I admit I do not know much about AVRs or home theater. But glad to see Klipsch is trying to help you. I'm sure Home theater guys will be in here soon to berate me..lol.

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How do they sound with Audyssey off?  i.e. "Stereo direct" or whatever your receiver calls it?  I have LS-2's but don't use Audyssey or any kind of room correction.

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Ricktate - I primarily use them for two channel as I did with my '78s.  All I did was re-run the Audyssey configuration.  I am using a Marantz AV7005 Pre/Pro with an Emotiva XPA-5.

 

PbPhoto - with all EQ off/Pure Direct it is very bad.  If I play the LS II's without the bass cabs connected, it literally sounds like the music is being played through the ice cream man's PA speaker!

 

As Rick requested, here is a picture of my setup...Den.jpg

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Sorry to hear this! Do you have another amp you can try to rule out the Marantz?

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Either Deezer through Sonos hardwired to AVR and hardwired to my router (streaming FLACs) OR my music library stored on a network drive that is also hardwired to my network.  These are all high-quality recordings and sounded wonderful on my 78s.  The mids and HF are dampened to say the least.  The higher the volume, the more they get lost and start to sound muddy.  Hoping I just got some defective/out of spec caps on my crossover networks.

 

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Definitely NOT my amp or pre/pro, Baron.  My KG2s still sound wonderful.  Also, just the other day I tried 70th anniversary CW III's and they, too sounded as expected.

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2 minutes ago, PeteVoxx said:

Definitely NOT my amp or pre/pro, Baron.  My KG2s still sound wonderful.  Also, just the other day I tried 70th anniversary CW III's and they, too sounded as expected.

Excellent! I would wait on the networks and not let this drive you crazy. Easy for me to say, I know!

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LOL - yes... easier said then done, Baron.  I have had them for about a month and it HAS driven me crazy already.  What's worse is my wife was like WHY did we buy these when the ones we got for $800 sounded SO much better.  She figured this out all on her own.  I didn't even bring it up!  

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So you had '78 LaScala's that sounded better than these new ones?

 

I wonder whether the crossover points or the driver specs changed between the two models. I know you said Klipsch is shipping new crossovers to try so be sure and report back if that fixes it. I'm inclined to say no because I'd think Klipsch is smart enough to not mess with what works.

 

Assuming the '78's were situated in the same spots and the new speakers, have you tried repositioning the new ones not as a potential permanent fix but just to see if location is

affecting the sound?

 

Is it possible the speakers are wired out of phase by you? Perhaps the internal crossover connections are not the same for both speakers?

 

Lastly, and this is contrary to what I see in the photo: Is that a real brick wall or faux? I see the brick wall, and the hardwood floor and I begin to think the acoustics in the room may be too live, which would muddy ANY sound.

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My Heresy III's sound worse with Audyssey than without. And I have measured them in a multitude of microphone positions. This was not the case with my previous speakers. Personally, I would turn off Audyssey, turn off the subs, and start fine tuning positioning and toe in. Keep in mind that PWK recommended 45 degree toe in, so don't be inhibited by "audiophile" dogma.

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Maybe muddy isn't an accurate description - more like "extremely lacking" as the volume and the midbass and bass increases, there is not nearly enough above 400Mhz to balance the tonal quality.  The 78's were on that same floor in front of that same brick wall in the same positions as the new ones.  My KG2's also sound fine as do CW III's.  I was hoping to find someone that had the LS II's and used Audyssey as I was curious if there's were tuned the same.  I appreciate your input, Peter!  

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Kevin,

 

thanks for your response! The problem is mids and highs are lacking and the EQ is all the way up for these frequencies.  

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Audyssey fools with far more than just frequency response. And what it does in one room is in no way transferable to another. And microphone placements within the same room can make night and day differences. You really should start from scratch, as in 2 channel with only the LaScala's, IMO. Best of luck! 

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I have H3's in a different room, voiced similarly to your CW3's afaik, and the H3's midrange and highs are more forward than my stock LS2's.  I can tell this both from listening and also the REW data measuring at 1M from the speakers shows this as well.  So my initial thought is that the LS2's are a more laid back presentation than what you are used to, but your other comments about sounding like an ice cream truck make me think there is something more serious going on.  The nutcrackers sitting on top of the LS2's can't be helping matters either :-)

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If we take 1K Hz as the reference point (at +2 dB), I think you are getting only 4 dB boost at 4k, 8K, 16K.  BUT I believe that Audyssey provides up to 9 dB boost, but our Marantz pro/pros just don't show it ...

 

My Klipschorns and Belle center have never sounded as good as they do with Audyssey.  In my set-up, Audyssey boosts 6 dB (or more; invisible) at 16K, but much less at 8K.

 

Did you use Audyssey with your 98s?

 

How are you handling the fact that LS II are too efficient in most rooms to avoid Audyssey setting most channel trims to -12 dB, with greater than 12 dB cuts called for, but impossible with the Marantz (and many others).  Many of us with pre/pros and separate power amps put attenuators in the line so Audyssey can set itself properly, then remove the attenuators after calibration.  Audyssey points out that my 12 dB attenuators, once removed will make "Reference SPL" -12 on the Main Volume Control, rather than 0 [i.e., 0 would now be 12 dB too loud].  Several people I have corresponded with have used this method.

 

Are you using Audyssey Reference (just plain Audyssey) or Audyssey FLAT?  If you haven't used it, try Audyssey FLAT.

 

I believe that the upper crossover moved from 6KHz down to 4.5K Hz (but with a much steeper slope).  The lower crossover may have moved from 400 to 450, but I'm not sure.  I have the modern configurations of Khorns, with 450 and 4.5, and they sound great without Audyssey, and even better with!  

 

I assume you are using all 8 mic positions.  As you probably know, it is not possible to "check" Audyssey EQ by using REW or the like, unless you use the same 8 mic positions, and average them, but, even then there will be a difference, because Audyssey uses weighting of highly shared remedies ("fuzzy logic," a good thing, if it works right).  If you use just one mic position with REW, after Audyssey calibration, the curve won't be flat, but, even so, when I tried it, with Audyssey FLAT, my in room measurement was within +/- 2 dB above 1K (I altered the sound to taste below 1K, using the bass control [not the virtual sliders] on the Marantz), except for a slight roll off at about 15K Hz.  Overall, Audyssey boosted an average of 5 dB above 1K, compared to the REW curve without Audyssey, and brought down a peak at 550, and eliminated a dip centered at about 350.  It also provided a 6 dB boost at 30 Hz.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, PeteVoxx said:

.  I am using a Marantz AV7005 Pre/Pro with an Emotiva XPA-5...

Unless there is a component issue, this is your problem right here ^

I run my LSii's flat for 2 channel and lightly EQ'ed for 5.1 (music and HT) and they sound spectacular. You are hearing exactly what emotiva and marantz sounds like. I would be willing to bet there is a set up issue also. Using a modern avr or pre pro can introduce way to many variables for some.

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Chances are your networks are fine. Some people swear by Audyssey even with two channel listening, but you're basically sending your content through a spaghetti strainer of logarithms with boost and cuts, adding distortion, compression and so on. If most people had a 35db or so listening space, they could then hear what Aud is doing to their music. For detailed two channel listening, you can't beat a direct source with any halfway decent room.  Just turn it off and go flat.  The LS II's are a different animal and actually put some of the higher tones and even high female vocals through the tweeter instead of the mid from the new style networks. They will sound different than the old LaScala. Once you get used to the old school pronounced mid like in old school La Scalas, its hard to escape it.  A really good midrange is the most important part of any speaker design because its almost everything our ears hear.  

 

Im guessing Aud is fighting that brick wall, a lot of echo and reverb as well, even with the rug you have. The hardwood floors don't help and the exposed wood floored corners create havoc.  You have a very sweet looking setup, you really should consider 4 large side sound panels and place two on each side of the fire place. I too have hardwoods and a rug, but until I added panels I never really knew what details and decay I was missing in the music content.  You might try hooking up any old AVR or basically anything else up to them without the Emo amp and see what you get.  Heck they LS's could even have a wire out of phase on each of them, you never know.  

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